Celebration Occasion

After 88 years my old high school friend’s dad finally accepted Christ in his life. They are ecstatic and praising god. Although cumbered with terminal illness and a morphing pain pump, the hospice nurses at the facility were gracious enough to let the family sing to him and pray for him and read scriptures to him. He was reborn!! He accepted Jesus. Praise god! Finally at the end of his life he saw the light. Can one be saved in this altered condition? The poor guy finally caved in. They posted pics of kids and grandkids reading verses and singing to their bedridden captive audience. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. But I did see it plastered on FB 2 days. Thoughts? Am I a sacrilegious bastard?

Here’s just one of the comments “He didn’t believe until now. We have had MANY conversations over the last 37 years, talking about the validity of the Bible, the statistical evidence. Once you understand those things, it almost takes more faith NOT to believe. ❤️ He finally was able to reconcile his science background with faith in Jesus, understanding they didn’t conflict”.<

All I can say is sarcasms sanctity surely swirls swiftly since Saturday’s savorous save. Jim

Author: jim-

One minute info blogs breaking the faith trap.

48 thoughts on “Celebration Occasion”

  1. “From your response would it be accurate to say you think standards of right and wrong, fairness, is an unwritten code that comes from your deity?”

    No.
    You’re jumping to conclusions that I didn’t make. First, we need to establish whether or not we agree that right and wrong exist apart from our opinions. Is it actually “right” to be kind? Is it actually “right” to be generous? Is cruelty actually “wrong”? Unless your moral standards exist outside of your personal opinion they don’t apply to the rest of us.

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    1. Sorry about the confusion John, but you sort of wrote the sentence “All of this is evidence of an unwritten code of conduct that exists outside of ourselves.” without explaining what you meant by outside of ourselves. Right and wrong are both individual and societal. It is better to be kind, but I wouldn’t use the word “right”. Same with generous. It is better for the well being of our communities, our society , and our species to do so. In that way it is good for us to do so. Are we on the same page so far? Hugs

      Liked by 1 person

      1. “It is better for the well being of our communities, our society, and our species to do so.”

        Okay. Do we agree that EVERYONE should do what is better for the well being of our communities, our society, and our species? Or is that just the way you personally prefer to behave? If it is “better” to be kind, why wouldn’t you say that is “right”?

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        1. I do agree that we would be better off if everyone did what is better for the well being of our communities, society, and our species. However we also have to factor in human nature , which means not everyone will react in the best manere and so will be destructive. I guess I would say being kind is the correct behavior so if that is what you mean by right I can agree to that. I find it personally wrong to be mean / unkind and can see that it would be a detriment to a functioning society. But I am not sure it is a moral demand or imperative if that is what you mean. And I should mention I am not claiming I have never been unkind. Just to try to be clear. Hugs

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  2. That was good. I left a comment another blogger left. Maybe the guy was a hero and giving his family a bit of peace before he left. I kinda like that.

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  3. I think the old boy displayed the wisdom of the ages. His final gift to the people he loved. A selfless act that should give us all hope that magnanimity is alive in our culture. God dam, I solute the man. Yours in reason, Nationofnope

    Liked by 1 person

  4. I’d say it was a mind that was no longer clear and that old bugaboo…FEAR and maybe some regrets and guilts thrown in for extra. And even a dose of Pascal’s wager….the Facebook part is really obnoxious though.

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  5. I’ve seen many a criminal suspect interrogated mentally/physically enough to where a confession was eventually coerced JUST TO STOP/RELIEVE the torture and/or anguish. LOL And if the man had been on drugs, pain-killers? HAH!!! Are you kidding me!? 😒 😖

    Liked by 3 people

      1. I would’ve accepted Audrey II (Little Shop of Horrors) as my heavenly Lord-n-Savor (yes, “Savor”) 😛 if I was that high and feelin’ oh so good/bad!!! 😉

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    1. Professor you have an extensive religious educational background. Do theist believe that a soul can be saved if the person accepting the religion ( the god ) doesn’t understand or have the ability to understand what they are accepting or what the religion is? I was thinking of people who got saved while very intoxicated, high on drugs, mental health issues, or lack reason ability, to simply not understanding the language. I know a woman my age with the mental ability of a small child ( she was born with the umbilical cord around her neck and her brain was oxygen deprived ) she can not process the idea of death really and so how can she understand the whole sin / sacrifice /saved argument? Then what happens if you are able to understand and are saved by the old blood of the lamb and then suffer brain damage where you can no longer understand it all, are you now not saved? And if you have to understand to be saved, what about all the changes / edits / mistranslations of the very book they are basing the whole ritual on, does that mean they are saved only partially because they misunderstood it all, or not saved because they did not get it all. The post really got me thinking on how much do you have to understand or process the whole thing to get the promised benefit. Thanks. Hugs

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Scottie,

        What a fantastic set of questions and quagmires to point out! Well done! I WISHED many more Christians (or religious followers!) would ask these types of questions and NOT simply accept the vague answers given them! But alas… 😦

        My first general answer to you will be forthright and honest: there is no one perfect cumulative consensus. Why? Because Christianity and its convoluted theology works, or is semi-functional, inside a Closed-System. That closed-system is driven by the 4th-century CE Canonical New Testament and Old Testament. It is incapable of answering specifically your questions. However, due to loop-hole-escapes or “faith” or moving the goal-posts — the Psalms are often utilized in these cases — the canonical bible and its ministers/pastors would answer that ‘God’s will is often ineffable and beyond human comprehension.’ That covers about EVERYTHING and every possibility doesn’t it? LOL 😛

        You also introduce an age old theological controversy: Predestination vs. Free-will. This debate is often heard when discussing the death of infants or toddlers. Why should they be punished with eternal damnation (due to Total Depravity caused by the Fall of Mankind/Original Sin we are all born into according to the canonical Scriptures) when they can’t yet understand the differences between Good and Evil? The majority of churches and their seminaries teach in fact a Humanist definition of Free-Will or Self-determination. This teaching is in despite of what the 4th-century CE canonical Bible states. I will not list all of the (canonical) scripture passages supporting God’s total sovereignty or initiative, but if it is one’s “only source” of truth, you are either chosen by God or you are not… no matter your age at death/salvation or mental capacities at death/salvation.

        But we the majority know that still is not a complete answer, not even CLOSE to a satisfactory answer. Therefore, humanity must go outside of that narrow closed-system to find answers or at least much better more complete answers. By doing that you depart from Christianity into a completely new paradigm. So to your first question Scottie:

        Do theist believe that a soul can be saved if the person accepting the religion ( the god ) doesn’t understand or have the ability to understand what they are accepting or what the religion is?

        Yes. For the simple reason that humanity cannot fully know the wishes of God at any given time on any one person even though PLENTY of people think they can know. But keep in mind too that this is the perspective or the perception of the VIEWER, not the objective status of the mentally incapable. That’s my best answer for now Scottie. 🙂 😛

        Liked by 2 people

    1. 53% of x happened in comparison to 45% of y. You can use this formula to get the answer you’re looking for: Belief + cognitive dissonance = “What I’ve always believed to be true is, and if you don’t see it, you’re an idiot.”

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      1. People want to hear what they already believe, and rewatch shows they’ve already seen. It comfort food to know what you know. Validation of your craziness is a highly sought commodity.

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    1. There is a touch of dementia too. I just don’t know how advanced it is. During cognitive moments not sure it would matter. But maybe

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  6. If you were in a desert and broke and someone offered you a glass of water or gold, which would you choose? Well, it would depend on how thirsty I am. So I don’t think that man really got saved cos he’d still be atheist if he were younger and healthier. And I am not bitter about that either. We have to give this to the theists even if they clearly cheated.

    Liked by 3 people

  7. You ought to send the family a link to this post. Let them know what horrible people they are!

    Send a note to your friend telling him he’s being irrational. Try to save him from salvation. The morals of natural evolution should compel you to do the right thing!

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    1. Although I see the problems with their behavior here, I also respect their right to do as they please and enjoy their remaining moments with there father. Just wish they didn’t do it on Facebook. You didn’t answer the question. Is this a save? Don’t make me block you. But I will.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. A horrible situation. To be harassed and embattled , to set on someone when they are in a frail and fragile state, weakend and near death is a violation. Poor man, I would have converted to the FSM in front of them to shut them up. Then started telling them about the unicorns and dragons in the room. Hugs

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    1. I’ll take a shot at answering the question you put to Taboo.

      “Do theist believe that a soul can be saved if the person accepting the religion ( the god ) doesn’t understand or have the ability to understand what they are accepting or what the religion is?”

      This answer will vary widely depending on the stripe of theist answering the question. I will offer my thoughts and then Y’all can laugh and call me a dickhead.

      The New Testament repeatedly indicates that people “choose” to follow Christ. God doesn’t “zap” faith into your head. Jesus taught that disciples should “count the cost” before deciding to adopt the faith. The cost is steep. “Deny yourself. Take up your cross and follow Me.” Jesus wants his disciples to surrender themselves.

      Most people don’t want to do that. This is why Jesus said, “The door that leads to life is narrow and not many go through it”. Most of the people who have the “ability to understand” Christianity choose to reject it.

      “Then what happens if you are able to understand and are saved by the old blood of the lamb and then suffer brain damage where you can no longer understand it all, are you now not saved? ”

      Again…you’ll get different answers from different theists. Multiple times Jesus is referenced as the good Shepherd. He talk about leaving 99 sheep to go and rescue the 1 that has wandered away. My personal theology is that once you are part of the flock, you’re saved…even if you go crazy later on. An important part of Christianity is faith that God is good and will always do what is correct. God says, “When you seek Me, you will find Me when you seek with all your heart.” He knows when you’re sincerely looking for Him. He knows when you’re bullshitting too. And He responds accordingly.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I think that’s a great answer from your perspective. For once JB you gave us a real answer to ponder. I tend to agree with you here from my own religious history I would guess close to that answer. I do have religious followers on my site and I think that gives some understanding to them. And I never called you a dickhead. I think merry go round operation engineer is appropriate. But not this time.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Hello John. Thank you for the attempt to answer. John I wish in talking to me you would drop the defencive postering and needless shielding yourself. I refer to statements like this : “I will offer my thoughts and then Y’all can laugh and call me a dickhead”. We do disagree often, but it is not really your having a belief I dislike as the way you treat people that seriously turns me off and makes me wonder about your commitment to the faith you claim to have.

        That said let’s talk about what you wrote. You wrote that people choose to follow Christ. I was under the idea that several places in the bible it mentions god chooses who will be saved, who will believe and who he grants understanding too. I admit I am not a biblical scholar but I do remember that being a big bone of contention by Ark, John, Argus, and some others. How can they be blamed for not believing when God controls who will be allowed to believe.

        By your cost is steep comment I then take it that those who can not understand the idea of salvation, the need of it, the cost as you wrote, those people can not be or are not saved, even if dragged to church by guardians or told things the can not reasonably process? That leads me to ask if your god, or the god you have faith in, punishes babies , young children, those who never were exposed to his “holy book” to damnation because they did not get the memo of his greatness or his sacrifice for them?

        John I thank you for sharing the last part of this, it is your personal belief. I think I really did not ask the question fully enough. You say that god knows when you are looking for him, that it is part of faith in god keeping you that makes you saved, if I understand you correctly. My question was based on my experience as an ICU CNAA where I have seen people totally be unable to process reality, and or have lost all ability to reason or comprehend reality. So those people wouldn’t be able to have faith, they lost the ability to comprehend or even desire / understand the higher concept of what is required from the deity of the bible as I understand what has been written.

        Thank you for responding. Best wishes . Hugs

        Liked by 2 people

        1. C’mon, man! You know I get called all kinds of nasty names. Dickhead is one of the kinder monikers.

          “How can they be blamed for not believing when God controls who will be allowed to believe.”

          This belief is often attributed to Calvinistic theism. I call it, “Spiritual determinism”. If God literally forces some people to believe, then Ark, Argus and the rest are correct in their outrage. I do not ascribe to this theology. Scripture mentions that even pagans “know God” because He is evidenced in Creation. Pagans are also credited with “righteousness” according to their understanding. This seems to me like God “cuts people slack” based on their individual circumstances. So…that means I’m not going to tell you that you’re going to hell because you don’t believe what I believe. I can’t make that call.

          The Bible says God is slow to bring judgment because he is “not willing that any should perish but that all come to know Christ”. Why would God feel the need to stall judgment if He has already decided who is saved?

          God does not punish babies and children. In fact, according to Christ, “the kingdom of Heaven is filled with those who are like children in their faith”.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. Well spoken. You have a habit of taking up huge amount of comment space and saying nothing. Today was a better day. Nice chat today John. Your opinion was heard and we enjoyed it. What is your faith background? Denomination?

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            1. Um…thanks….I guess?

              Mom dragged me to church when I was a kid. I fidgeted on the pew and can’t remember a single sermon. In High School, I read C.S. Lewis “Mere Christianity” and it floored me. That was the first book that cracked open my infantile “fundamentalism”. I started to realize that God is much bigger than religion. Many of my fellow Christians will call me “liberal”. Most of the atheists call me “right-wing, conservative”. I’m a man without a country but that doesn’t upset me.

              I attend a generic “Christian Church” that isn’t affiliated with any major denominations. We’re a “non-denominational” denomination.

              I agree with much of the criticism the atheists level at “religion”. The arrogant hypocrisy upset me as much as it does you.

              Liked by 1 person

            2. I bet. Mega churches just really put the icing on the cake if hypocrisy. Lol. Well spoken sir. Hey it was a good day! Later!

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          2. Dang, I almost made it to bed then your response came in. OH well I will do my best to answer you.

            I can understand both sides to your lament about your treatment, you are not innocent in it. I merely point out I have not been part of your labeling and leave it up to you to show me your true face. Let’s move forward.

            I was, maybe still am a pagan. So right now let’s agree that part of your scripture is wrong. I dislike people telling me what i know or believe, because as a gay man I have had people tell me I was not born gay , but choose to be gay all my life. They are wrong, I did not chose to be gay, i simply am homosexual. It is normal for me as being heterosexual is for others. .

            What I understand you to say is all people can be good and it is not your religious faith but your “works and deeds”, your lifestyle ( righteousness ) that determines your eventual fate. That is basically the atheist view of life subtract the unneeded religious componente. What we do in this life defines us to a great extent.

            Why would God feel the need to stall judgment if He has already decided who is saved?

            Is not your god all knowing ? The bible says he is. SO he must know the end right from the beginning. He knows already at the first moment even before creating a single other being what will happen, what he will do in response, what those he created will do. So yes he knows already who will meet his criteria and who will not. In that way he has decided prior to starting who will be saved and who will not despite anything they can do.

            I am not a biblical scholar but is that not common sense? He makes the rules and he knows how it will all play out, his grand plan. If the most powerful of angels in heaven couldn’t fight against that and win, how would a lowly human have a chance?

            Those who are like children does not address the issue. We all know what it means to be like a child, it means not to question. Heck john child molesters depend on that. Is that really what your deity wants, to be unquestioned by it’s followers?

            The fact is there are many people around the world that have never hear of your deity, and children die without any idea of a deity. The idea that that would be held against them destroys any idea of the golden rule, of love and forgiveness, or even that the being doing the judging has the right to do so.

            Thanks john for responding. If you answer this comment I will pick it up in the morning. I need to head off to bed. Be well. Hugs

            Liked by 1 person

            1. “What I understand you to say is all people can be good and it is not your religious faith but your “works and deeds”, your lifestyle ( righteousness ) that determines your eventual fate.”

              No. That’s what makes Christianity different. It’s not “good behavior” that brings about salvation. The Bible explains that “nobody is righteous”. Humans are selfish and conceited. We want to live life on our terms. It offends us that God might have some standards of behavior.

              But we kinda know there are standards. We “feel” that some things are right and other things are wrong. We have a sense of “fairness”. We value “kindness”. We are repelled by “cruelty”. All of this is evidence of an unwritten code of conduct that exists outside of ourselves.

              We know these “rules” exist and we know that we have broken them. Our conscience bothers us when we break the rules. That’s not just “chemicals” mixing in our physical bodies. Guilt and shame are real things.

              That’s why Jesus came along. Christ takes the blame for everything you’ve done that has made you feel guilty. In a nutshell, that’s the Gospel.

              But this only happens if you ask for it. God doesn’t force Himself on anyone. He won’t turn you into a robot. The door to life is narrow but the door to destruction is wide. We get to pick which door to go through.

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            2. Hello John, sorry for being so late in responding to you, things got away from me. From your response would it be accurate to say you think standards of right and wrong, fairness, is an unwritten code that comes from your deity?
              If that is so have you considered that our social constructs of interaction including right and wrong and even fairness come from the evolution of our species from small social groups to much larger communities. We learned early that cooperation was a better chance of survival. We learned ways to live together that was more satisfying. For example we do not want others to kill us, so we don’t kill them. We know what hurts us , harms us, and we do want others to do that to us, so we didn’t do it to them. We simply evolved a social structure that allowed us to increase the well being of the species. You are correct most of us are repelled by cruelty because we developed empathy for those treated that way as we do not want to be treated cruelly ourselves.
              As we developed and grew into larger communities more and more rules / laws / social constructs were needed to further the well being of our species. We developed larger better brains able to reason things out. We imposed these rules and modes of conduct on ourselves, and they can develop with the evolution of our species from where began to where we have got to now. In my worldview there is no need for a deity as all of this was a natural process that progressed as we evolved.
              I do understand you are a person of faith and so attribute our species advancements in enlightenment to a deity.
              I do understand emotions are very real. When it comes to guilt the major religions of the world, including christianity, have honed that weapon to an extremely useful tool. But again guilt is a social construct that doesn’t require a god to create it. We can show that by showing how things that once caused guilt and deep shame no longer do as understanding increased in society. Sexual guilt is one of the things that we outgrew. It was caused by ignorance. I would say the human species is simply growing up and evolving into hopefully a better species.
              Be well. I understand you see it differently as you believe in a deity. SO we will not agree on this issue. Be well. Hugs

              Liked by 1 person

            3. Not sure why this didn’t attach as a reply…sorry for the duplicate post:

              “From your response would it be accurate to say you think standards of right and wrong, fairness, is an unwritten code that comes from your deity?”

              No.
              You’re jumping to conclusions that I didn’t make. First, we need to establish whether or not we agree that right and wrong exist apart from our opinions. Is it actually “right” to be kind? Is it actually “right” to be generous? Is cruelty actually “wrong”? Unless your moral standards exist outside of your personal opinion they don’t apply to the rest of us.

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