You want to see this absolutely brilliant crop dusting of the Christian argument for morality see this post and read the comments. They spent the next several hours trying to address only selected verbiage and imho without question lost, and resorted to cherry picking points with Branyanistic name calling and Mel moving the topic goal posts. It was masterful ! Here’s the first comment-
“I’ve always found the morality argument for a god to be the absolute weakest for the simple reason that we have hard evidence that this thing we call “morality,” which is really nothing but a formative sense of good (positive) and bad (negative) behaviour, is a product of neurological processing power. The more neurons, the more accute an organisms understanding of it. Countless studies, across numerous species, prove this beyond any rational doubt. It is not a human phenomena, and its anything but complicated- John Zande
Gonna pop on over and read some of the comments. It’s a great time to raise my blood pressure to dangerous levels.
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Welp, now I’ve got a headache and my blood pressure is up. Arguing with those folks is like watching hamsters run in a wheel. After a bit, you figure out they’re not going anywhere even though they haven’t yet. Can’t do it myself. For me, such arguments are set ups for a punchline. they are fun to read, too.
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Wasn’t that an amazing representation. Did you get down to the squawk!! ?
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Yep. That dude, JB, always winds up name calling and acting like a 6 year old who can’t get his way. he’s supposed to be a “comedian” too, but there isn’t even anything accidentally funny about him. Bitterness and anger are all that come across.
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JZ actually kicked butt.
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Oh, he always kicks these clowns butts. They’d never admit it, but he walks all over them. Of course, this leads to squawking and name calling by said clowns. Zande has great patience, great knowledge, and a calm way of presenting his argument in the face of some REALLY big idjits. He reminds me of the way Sam Harris presents his arguments. I’ve watched Harris stay quite calm with people literally yelling in his face. You’d think, if you have to resort to yelling, squawking and name calling, you’d know you’ve lost your argument. These guys never learn. They’re right. You’re wrong, and if you disagree, they squawk at ya’.
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Oh, by JB, I wasn’t referring to John. I meant that Branyan dude.
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Oh I know. It was an awesome display of knowledge and authority vs belief and crazy
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Snake oil salesmen often have to regroup to peddle their crap. New package same old garbage.
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The serpent was smoother than a used car salesman. He’s disguised as a mega preacher now!
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The discussion (if it can be called that) does quickly become unproductive once you challenge Mel’s many presuppositions most all of his posts do not handle first! Almost all of the time I can’t even get past his opening paragraph or sentences!!! LOL 😲 Yikes!!!! 😵
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I thought being first comment in, JZ nailed it. Fabulous and right!
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Agreed! John Z is a MASTER at logic and philosophical/ontological debate. When he has the opponent Checked or Check-mated, they TRY to run off and create another diversion or worse… take it down to personal jabs or insults. But still, in the end THAT is defeated manuevering and conceding. 🙂
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Well, well, well!!!! Someone named “LatinGem” just started following my blog! Oh my! I WONDER who that could be????? 😊😍
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No se! No entiendo!No hablo inglés
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🤣 Are you implying that I’m gonna have to find out ON MY OWN who this mystery Latina could be? 😉
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I think you already did. You can run….
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And run FAST!!!!!!! 🏃♂️
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The Goddess Diana?
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But you better duck! Chancletas coming. She looked for the name kneejerk, but it was already taken
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HAH!
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I can’t promise to play nice if I disagree. I might have to season my crow from time to time. 🤔
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Hahahaha! I don’t expect anything LESS! I find forthright candor VERY refreshing Ma’am. 😁 ❤
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He sounds lovely. I will light a candle and pray to Simeon the Holy Fool on his behalf.
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In all honesty LG, in the beginning when Ark lured me over to his blog — because I’m a pretty well educated Deconvert from a very respectable accredited seminary — He was pleasant and respectful. However, as I began to question/challenge several of his very basic precepts… he got very impatient and increasingly unpleasant in his dialogue and verbiage with me. Still… he does have more general politeness than most who frequent his blog. I’ll happily give him that.
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Duly noted. I’ll take baby steps for now. ❤️
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Sorry! I was referring to the Pastor/Dictator, not Ark. Just want to be clear! LOL
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Ark is mad. Really mad! Lol
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Hahaha! He’s already over it. He’s good that way. 😉
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If you prep by listening to Sye Ten Bruggencate for two minutes beforehand (or just chant “How do you know that?” 50 times in a row), Mel’s presuppositions will seem less vexing.
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They don’t really phase me I guess. I just tried to Zande it and not get off to far. He never did address anything really did he? He has to first prove there is a god. He’s got the cart in front of the horse! Or elephant!
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Agreed. Whenever he’s asked to bring out the steak, he reverts to describing the sizzle.
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The Perezzites of the OT was misspelled. But from the original text and according to the finest interpretation in was coded as BrainYawn
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Somehow there is something inherently wrong with someone that goes to the ends of the earth to try and incorporate god into a fairly straightforward concept that really needs no more explanation. First they have to prove god exists. They can’t so they baby step and try the backdoor. This is maybe even harder to prove that the concept of god since there is so much good evidence to oppose them
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Well. here’s “Mel’s closing reply when KIA asked, “Wouldn’t going with your heart as the final arbiter be one of the most dangerous and subjective things a person can do?” on his Believing is a Heart Issue post (2017-11-06):
He’s admitted that his position is based on an emotional high that’s impervious to logic or conflicting evidence, so the only way he’ll be persuaded to abandon it if that feeling disappears.
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I remember him saying too, that he doesn’t care if they proved the Bible was written totally by forgers, that those forgers were inspired by god. Lol
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Yep, here’s a discussion that supposedly took place with William Lane Craig during a book signing:
http://www.jcnot4me.com/page83.html
That, is what you are up against — even from one of the world’s most foremost Christian philosophers.
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I would say this is a good script for Insanity IV. Eric Hoffer said about 35% of the people are followers that need to attach to something outside or bigger than themselves. He calls them “true believers”. 35% I could live with, but they spend the rest of their lives convincing others that it is the only way.
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Corrected link to comment:
melwild.wordpress.com/2017/11/06/believing-is-a-heart-issue/#comment-15556
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😄 Chanting now!!! 😉
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Good call. Listening to Sye Ten Bruggencate puportedly induces many of the side effects associated with taking Lyrica.
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Yes, as I started to … ho bina joaloka uena directed, I a qala ho bua ba bang things that I’d NEVER utloa pele !!!! It blew phofo ea ka e tsoa !!!! 😮
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Rotflmao 😂
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I believe that is the first time I have ever typed that acronym! A new first!
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That was the language of Sesotho — Google Translate, btw. LOL 😛
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lol. Latuda might help, but comes with its own side effects.
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Ron, I’m beginning to suspect that you are about to call the nearby “asylum” and give them my address!!!? 🤔
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That depends. Do you own multi-round assault rifles and harbor an extreme animosity towards any particular social demographic? If so, there’s a pastor in Wisconsin who offers cures of other-centered, self-giving love. YMMV
* Disclaimer — Comments are for informational purposes only and not intended to diagnose, prescribe, treat, or cure any medical condition. Statements should not be taken as a substitute for proper medical advice from a licensed physician.
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Thank you, kind sir. Must say, their positions do make me laugh.
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It was almost better sitting back and reading it a few days later. As a more objective viewer it was obvious. Really obvious. Nice work. Hey we’ve decided to adopt a pup. Been dog free since getting her from Panama. We are ready!
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Good for you! A Billion points.
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That’s good. Now I have a billion and 1. We’ll find a shelter pup for sure.
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I popped over there from some other link and left a comment. JZ was right that the post was simply an argument from morality (if I’m not mistaken, William Lane Craig did one a while back). I tried putting it differently, but I’m not sure if it’ll get the point across.
Really it’s just trying to associate pattern with deliberation. Not every pattern requires sentient action, otherwise water pouring out from a tap into a glass could be considered a divine act. Maybe a human from 10,000 years ago might consider it to be the case, but it wouldn’t make the divinity claim any more true.
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Hey everyone. I lost my site. Need a refollow on this one to stay in touch. Thanks. Good to see you all back!
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I lost my sight once. Then I opened my eyes, and it came back. 🙂
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I’ll try that. Wow!!! Nothing
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Hallelujah!
Amazing Fates, It’s still around
Your blog’s back on my screen
It once was lost, but now it’s found
Was gone, but now it’s seen.
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But it’s a new address. I’m still missing 119 posts. I think they’ll find it though. Good to see you. How’s Mel? Lol
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I feel for you. I found out the hard way that it’s only after we’ve lost everything, that we finally start doing regular backups. I think WP has a built-in feature, but I don’t have an account to verify it.
https://en.support.wordpress.com/export
Mel’s acting like a Christian . . . for now. 🙂
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I have an email with a zip from them but when I try to upload it says it has to be in WXR. The file they gave me is not
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Wish I could help, but my coding skills are fairly ancient. Perhaps one of the other WP bloggers has more info.
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WP support is helping but slow to respond
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I’ve been soft with deflective ending statements. He’s dismissing me because the answer is too easy. And it really is.
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The idea that objective moral standards may not exist is a hard concept to embrace — even for non-theists.
I won’t jump into your convo, but the video contains at least two faulty premises:
1. It claims that subjectivism — the doctrine that knowledge is merely subjective and that there is no external or objective truth — means there is “no right or wrong”; and
2. It presumes that traditional moral values have an objective grounding.
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“Traditional values” like, for example, the status of women? Animal sacrifice?
Is that what he’s suggesting?
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@ JZ
Don’t know. I found the written essay on line. Lewis doesn’t elaborate. It seems he uses many words to compensate for the fact he has little to say. Perhaps he meant rape, pillage and plunder.
https://goo.gl/jt4TA1
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I’ll look. Thanks Ron
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Go back over to Mel’s and let me know how I’m doing. I am making a lot of connections here on my own observations. Feel fee to confirm or add or correct.
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Sigh. It was going well until the ‘evil’ clown entered the fray. Now I expect it will all go downhill.
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Yep. I’m done. I wish I could do a bitch slap 👋🏻
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Dear Jim
Evolution is all about traits beneficial for survival. If you sell and give away everything that you own … Give everything that you have to the poor … Is that beneficial for survival? Like, if somebody takes your tunic do not withhold your cloak ever. Even if it is too cold to survive without it. Like a self-sacrificing lifestyle all the way through. Continuing … How about turning the other cheek? Is that commonly linked to survival? A typical human trait? I would define it as moral above evolution and man itself. Giving up your life (not in war, and without harming anyone else) so that others may live, is probably the most non-evolution thing one can do. After all everything is about survival and passing on our genes. Bad talking people who struggle with confirmation bias is perhaps not the nicest thing to do either. I mean would not the most perfect moral be to help them in a loving manner? How about being an extrovert? Preferred by the world. Most leaders are, yet they are mostly interested in putting their stamp on things. Rather than listen to the ideas of others.
How about autistic traits that are more common in non-believers (according to research). Are they linked to generosity and moral? Who is winning the tug of war in general?
Evolution says adapt or die.
“For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”
Jesus Christ
Love, Isabella
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But even a pronghorn will separate from the heard to bait the lions away and altruistic behavior like that is also found in the animal kingdom. Sometimes sacrifice for the greater good is survival of the species. Great comment! ❤
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Yes, but it is not typical;-)
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Birds do It, lions, water buffalo, and so forth. I think it is something to think about.
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That just backs up my case.
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Maybe in Norway 🇳🇴. You must be out of context.
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No, absolutely not. You are the one isolating facts to make it fit your worldview;-)<3
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Where’s my moderation button? …
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ha ha ha … If you are right there is no treat in my comments.
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Good to argue with you again brother ♡ ♡.
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And it often occurs across species
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That is cool. And the Asian chica in the add too. Lol
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Thanks<3
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I see you got your eye on me!
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Yep, I do. I think you need it.
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God natt kjære søster
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Wow. Tusen takk. God natt kjære bror ♡ ♡
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Tusen takk is thank you a thousand times.
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Good morning!☀️
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Good morning:-) Good evening to you ♡ ♡
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Please let me know if I become annoying;-) God natt.
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https://latinagem.wordpress.com/2018/02/25/life-in-spanglish/
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I can just pretend I didn’t see that
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That link I sent is Christine’s new blog.
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Thank you<3
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Jeg kunne spise litt lefse med min kaffe dette. God morgen.
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God morgen! You are picking up the language pretty fast♡ ♡
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Nah. Just an interest and a google translate app. But mail me some lefse Lol
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OK. Google is awesome. I like people that are swee and chocolate, not that into lefse or other sweet stuff;-)
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Kjøttkaker? That’s more to my liking
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Yes! They taste great. Although I am a vegetarian now.
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It is amazingly similar though
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Many languages are. igualmente – i lige måte
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Da is russian for yes. Ja, in our language. Niet russian no, nei in our language.
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One final point. Sorry;-) ♡ ♡ If you can tell, as you non-believers state, a lot about the creator by observing creation. Why would you exclude these traits you are mentioning? At the same time, include everything that fits so nicely. When it does so. Sound like adapting to me that again reminds me of evolution itself. Hugs, Isabella
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“IF” there was a creator, that would be a interesting discussion. But good point too “if” I see what you mean. 🙂
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I haven’t been on here for a while, nice to have my computer working again… for now. What happened to all your other blog posts? they seem to have been removed?
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That happened a few days ago. I guess when things are working good, just leave them alone. I lost everything I exported the site and tried to move and when I imported it the next day, the zip was empty. I still might be able to recover. The data is not too important it was all of you that make it so cool anyway.
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Ah that’s annoying. Good you are still here.
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Thanks. You too
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Hi Jim … thought this might be a better place for some discussion. 🙂
Suggest you visit this page as it discusses morality from a more sensible perspective. Might give you some pointers to present to you-kn0w-who.
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Thanks. I have to work now, and like you said, the minds are made up. At least I got some in before the Yawn showed up
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Thanks Nan. I finally got to that. Very helpful.
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