When your individuality is determined by a set of pre-made choices and established dogma decided by committee or a single authoritarian you will never be your true self. You are achieving the ideals of another. Drinking age here is 21. Age of consent for baptism should be no less. How can one determine who they want to be as a baby, child, or even a young adult. Minors are not legally allowed to enter into contract, and aligning yourself before you can read the fine print should be discouraged by wise parenting. Joining anything that requires a process to withdrawal is forbidden everywhere—but religion. Joining the stamp club, having a bank account, or having your own gym membership where you can easily cancel and move on is illegal. Your name is always in the Catholic Church, regardless of your desire to disassociate. Saying the Shahada makes you a Muslim, but declaring disbelief is punishablelol by death in many countries, and eternal torment awaits your death “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (their selves in the Hellfire).” (Quran 3:85) Hardly a contract for a minor to enter. I still don’t know what I want to be when I grow up. How can even one person make one rational decision about religion before they are an adult? Impossible!
TheCommonAtheist 
An interesting thing I came upon in researching some of my Quaker ancestors is that some of the children in the family did not join the society until they were adults. It seems the parents left the decision about religion to the children entirely.
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That would require faith. Now the minute daddy finds god he takes away the freewill of the family.
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Personally, I think a child must grow up practicing religion. This helps him see and understand the flaws. Raising a kid without influence of religion might result in him being attracted to some faith just out of curiosity. Curiousity is dangerous. 😉
Raising a kid as an atheist, telling him why and how not to follow any faith is damn hard.
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That’s isn’t really how you hedge it off. Not being religious helps, but thinking skills can be taught. They will inevitably hear about religion, but being able to know why these things are in existence and teaching them to analyze before blindly having faith in anything is a first step.
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And the first step is always the hardest.
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Especially in a culture where it is just expected.
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And enforced.
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Living a double life can be so stressful and monotonous.
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You mean acting like you have faith for the sake of people you love?
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13 Muslim countries atheism is illegal and punishable by death. I would guess a lot of double living there for certain.
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Oh yeah!
Not only atheism, carrying a Bible or anything related to other religions is not tolerated.
Nobody has rights.
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I beg to disagree. I did not grow up practicing religion nor was atheism pushed. It was all neutral with no coercion in any direction. I never believed and never felt inclined to. The only thing I was ever curious about and still am to this day, is how on earth modern people in the 21st century ever and still believe this fantasy. The only conclusion is indoctrination, which thankfully I didn’t get.
Hard core indoctrination as many of you have experienced becomes like a cult and can be hard to break away from. The fact that you believe becomes more important than what nonsensical illogical things you believe. You become an outcast if you don’t. It’s all about power and control.
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I just shared what I see. It’s always good to have a new perspective.
You’re right, it ultimately boils down to power and control.
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Hello, BU, nice to meet you. Bringing up a child aware of religion is one thing. Bringing that child up in a religion is another. How self-aware that child will become is dependent on being able to think for itself. I was lucky, I taught myself how to think. Not all children can do that.
But I watched a completely different experience unfold one day that brought a different kind of awareness to mind. A woman I know, a single mother, brought her daughter up with a bit of knowledge about relgion, but no real understanding of it. The gist was
once she was old enough to understand, then she could make up her mind how she wanted to live. In Grade 3 she ran home from school in tears. Her teacher had somehow discovered she was not baptised, and told her she had to believe in god and accept Jesus into her heart or she would spending eternity burning in hell. It took quite a lot of hard work to calm the daughter down, and reassure her that there was no such place as hell.
The next morning the mother accompanied her daughter to school, she marched up to the teacher’s desk, and verbally tore her apart, in front of all her students, for telling a child she would burn in hell, as if it were nothing to be concerned about. Of course the teacher called the principal, and while he turned out to be a christian, he sided with the mother and fired the teacher on the spot. And she deserved to be fired. (I never heard how her appeal turned out.)
That experience showed me that a little knowledge is not enough, and you can never protect your child all of the time. Especially when religion is involved, there are people out there who mouth the words, but have no idea of their possible impact on a growing mind. People need to be more aware of the power of words.
And, in my mind, even though I do not feel the necessity of delaying baptism, or whatever ceremony is equivalent, since it is meaningless IMO, still I think Jim does have a decent idea here. Short-circuit the wiring before it can be made permanent.
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Wow RG. We agree on something! At least with varied information and thinking skills they can keep the neuropathways open. Once hard wiring takes place with indoctrination it takes a special situation to disconnect the brainwashing. It becomes a problem of physiology where no amount of reasoning can override the circuit.
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Hey, I thought we had a lot in common. I guess I’m just too trusting, lol. But I know how you think, and I think of you as a friend…
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Thank you. Egualmente amigo. Glad you feel that way. Very happy we met and have some interesting dialogs. Somehow we’ll each find our answers as we bounce things around.
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Hello there. I don’t know why people take religion so seriously in your country. I was brought up to be a religious, they told me God is omniscient and omnipresent and supreme. As I grew up, I was exposed to Christianity, Jainism and Sikhism. Out of all these religions, only people practicing Islam are very serious about their religion and beliefs.
Coming to atheism, I know a guy who lost his parents when he was a mere child and grew up working and living on his own with nobody to tell him about his religion. He knew he was a Hindu but didn’t believe in God and now he’s in his fifties and he suddenly became religions, always telling me how to worship God and blasphemy is sin as it closes gates to heaven. What I meant was, healthy exposure to religion gives a person the required insight on its flaws. I was having Hinduism in mind when I said that because it’s not forced, we’re just told what to do and nobody cares if we follow the suggested path. But Abrahamic religions are different.
Nice to meet you too. 🙂
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All hail Krshna, Eater of Worlds. Nice to know there is a god who doesn’t care.
Or should I say another god that doesn’t care. The Abrahamic god of Jews, Christians, and Muslims everywhere sure doesn’t care about his followers, but then, how can he, when he doesn’t exist?
I like your statement about people taking religion so seriously in the Western world. They don’t really, most of the time they live without giving one thought to is their god real, or are they living a sin-free life. Nobody lives a sin-free life. But tell them that, and suddenly religion is the most important thing in the world, or beyond it.
Let me tell you about myself: I care about religion only because it hurts those who believe in it. It feeds them impossible commandments, and then make their soul dependent on being perfect. If nothing else, it is the greatest scam on Earth. I don’t like seeing any living being hurt, and I hate when they get scammed.
BUT, and this is a big but, for myself, I care about life, not just living it, but understanding it. Since I was a little child I cared about understanding things. Some physical things, some mental things, some psychological things, and some metaphysical things.
And then one day I discovered life was an actual thing, not just a state of being. And I needed to understand it because it was a thing. And I have spent most of my life trying to understand it. Now I understand it, at least the part I can see of it, but I don’t have the words to describe what I understand. And I also understand my understanding is just for me. Life is a relative thing at our level of existence, different for everyone. I could leave it at that, I probably should leave it at that, but in case I return to this plane of existence, I want there to be a record of all my work in this life, so I can pick it up where I left off next life. And maybe I can take it further from that point. I think that would be a good thing.
And that is why I am serious, not about religion, but about life. Life is actually a very serious proposition, in my opinion.
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I, too, share your commitment to take life seriously…. so seriously, in fact, that it hurts. Thanks for sharing.
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Treat this like a side job and you’ll be fine. Frank, I think your concise and wise postings are excellently framed and thought provoking. Look forward to them.
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May I as how it hurts? And how much?
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I agree that there isn’t a life without sin. Did you read judgement day and Garuda Purana? I looked at some passages from those and deeds that lead to punishment are ridiculous.I mean, we’re always attracted to something or the other and if you’re going to hell for being attracted, it’s stupid. Everything god does is justified and if we do the same, we’re going to hell.
I hate double standards.
A life without sin is impossible.
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That’s part of the hook in Christianity. Any amount of sin requires penalty and that penalty is separation from god and his good for eternity in hell. Therefore, you need Christ to save you from your sin. And BTW, here’s the list. Now go self deprecate you sinner. Lol. And it includes acts of nature.
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Not just Christianity, every major religion has its own list and version of hell. It makes me wonder what kind of twisted mind would write about such punishments. And what’s pretty is the list of punishments is almost the same everywhere.
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I hear Bharathism is the best way to go 🙂 Good to see you friend.
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*cough cough*
Good to see you too.
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Sorry,I haven’t even heard of either, if they are not one. I get very little of my learning from books. I depend most on face-to-face communication, experience, and my own ability to think for most of my learning, and understanding. I don’t really trust books, if you know what I mean…
But double standards are everywhere, and they are sometimes hard to avoid, even for me. I know what I feel is right, or whatever word you want to use for that feeiing, but some situations call for doing elsewise. I tty to never write anything in stone, but some things have to be, at least until they get eroded and replaced. It seems life is just that way, doing the best one can, but still rolling with the waves…
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Indeed. Comparative religion studies should be part of the standard curriculum in every primary school. You have inspired me to raise this topic at my next ffrf meeting to explore how we might advocate for such. Thanks and peace.
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Creating an awareness, educating children regarding a religion’s pros and cons is necessary. Scientific and logical thinking has to be the aim though. When you understand religion, you understand how a part of society works. Doesn’t mean you have to follow one. 🙂
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“I was exposed to Christianity, Jainism and Sikhism”
Lucky you. Being exposed to beliefs contrary to one’s own must times cause us to rethink our stance, at least that’s what happened to me
If everyone around you believe the same thing as you, it more difficult to believe anything different
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I consider myself lucky in that aspect because I closely examined people from different cultures. This is what made he doubt god’s existence because there are so many concepts and beliefs. The more I believed, the more disappointment it caused. When nobody was giving me the answers to my questions, I stopped believing altogether.
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I remember those times as a child when statements like “that is a foolish question”, “that is just how it is”,”this question is not important”
We’re given as answers to my questions about god and religion
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Sometimes there were situations where I had to remain silent because even I had no answer.
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All of my church, seminary, and Holy Scriptural teachings/exegesis showed you do these types of sacraments because in this life on Earth we/Xians live in the Debals Domain; Satan is waiting around every corner (in human form or in evil unseen spirits) to SNATCH-UP God’s little children. Within Islam I would think it is much more than Satan — it is way too many “infidels” that can con and influence Allah’s children into apostacy!
No matter how you examine the acute Abrahamic paranoia about invisible (or visible) Evils, without God/Allah — the Puppeteer — and as many identical puppets around you daily as a ring-of-protection against… well, essentially AIR, religious zealots will contract EVERYTHING imaginable as soon as possible! LOL 😵
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As should circumcision!
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No kidding. A god that requires a peepee skin is asking commitment a little soon. Uh, excuse me? Can’t we at least have a coffee first?
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A few years ago a case of human rights was brought before the Hague citing circumcision for religious reasons as child abuse.
It never made it through as Germany abstained from voting!
One day it will, though.
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If the god did not like that skin, he shouldn’t have put it there in the first place
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“Give me the child for the first seven years and I’ll give you the man.”
― Jesuit maxim
Hugs
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“Give me whiskey for 7 hours in a row, and I’ll show you a drunk.” W.C. Fields, circa 1932
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Heck I can name that tune in half that … 😀 Hugs
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I am currently having a rum and coke, what do you prefer Jeff? I picked up a bunch of Smirnoff Ice variety box for Ron. Hugs
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Ron is rum in Spanish. Your covered both ways
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I use to love Jack Daniels and Jim Beam. I was a bourbon man in my youth. Then in my “middle ages” I became diabetic. I looked up what was the best for diabetics and clear rum was the one that seemed to fit. Now after a little research I found out that the whiskey I liked are also low sugar and carbs. But the diabetic people still push clear rum. I don’t know, I miss Jack. Hugs
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I am a Johnny Walker guy but Jim Beam also is a good tug now and then. If you ever get a chance at Montana 1889 or Pendletons don’t pass that up. Talk about whiskey! Whoa!
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Grand Idea. Thanks. Hugs
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I don’t drink much at all any more. I use an herb called Kratom to catch a smooth, calm buzz. Good stuff. Tastes awful, but the feeling is very pleasant.
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If it works for you , it is good? I prefer a good buzz to some of the medications I have to take otherwise. I wish cannabis was legal here in Florida, but sadly it is not…Yet. Hugs
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It’s not cannabis. It’s a leaf related to the coffee plant and, so far, it’s legal in most states. Though, since it works, big pharma is trying to shut it down by making it a scheduled substance. Utter nonsense. It works quite well, but it’s a powdered form of the leaf which you drink mixed in water or juice. It mixes poorly and tastes like pure ick, but the gentle buzz and focus you get is very nice. Many are using it to get off opiates.
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I hope our government will soon see the reason behind this. If it works, and is not harmful, let’s use it. Hugs
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Oh, it’s from Central Asia and has been used there for over 1000 years.
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Then the real, work will be to make it less bitter. Hugs
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Well, they tried that with the GOP, but, so far, it hasn’t worked.
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Sorry, I did not mean the question mark at the end of it is good. I meant a ! but my fingers wouldn’t do as told. 😀 Hugs
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That’s OK??
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Teaching children how to think critically and understand the basics of logic and to question assumptions will help them navigate their future. That is if you have the patience to be questioned for the rest of your life.
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Thanks for sharing, Jim. For me, thinking for oneself is more than a right… It is a sacred duty. The mere idea that children be PERMITTED to think critically, if adequately socialized, would transform the world in one generation.
Alas, most “ADULTS” I encounter seem incapable of informed consent, no matter their age… saddling us with a vicious chicken and egg problem of Biblical proportions.
I hope the lurkers still in the closet choose to come out. It’s the best thing they can do to break the cycle of ignorance and barbarism, for everyone’s sake.. now and for all time to come.
Thanks and peace, man.
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Frank, I posted a comment on Kia’s site a bit ago. This resonates with you here as well. Allow me “I am comfortable finding my own way. If I need a system to be happy I will make my own to fulfill the needs of my family and have done quite well with wonderful, decent and kind children. I don’t believe people need this kind of religious governance to live fulfilling lives. I think they think they need it. That’s what they’ve been taught to believe, but if they were to drop belief they would see that there is nothing to fear. A few weeks back they were telling me the Bible is gods ultimate unchanging morality. I asked them to show me one authoritative, unchanging morality of god or the Bible. They couldn’t produce one. The fact is we have done it all along. Some give credit to god for that, but as there is no god I know that the good that comes through fairness and social progress and love and charity is from regular people. Always has been. The god they are searching for is an anticlimactic us. Believe if you’re compelled to, but you have proven your goodness already by severing ties with a creed and history of deception and excuses you could not be a part of anymore. I cannot make those excuses any longer. I can do better than that.
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Nice. Couldn’t have said it better
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“….aligning yourself before you can read the fine print should be discouraged by wise parenting.” I love that line, Jim. There’s a whole lot of fine print, too, isn’t there?!
(Somehow or other I managed to “un-follow” your blog. Don’t know how that happened. Glad to be back!).
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Catch phrases and one liners is the bulk of faith. The fine print, unfortunately, no on gets to until it is part of their culture.
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