Why By Force? The Heralded Fathers

When did Christians first begin to use force to convert people?

After much searching it seems there is one Christian organization admitting some truth, although in the end prides itself for Christian unity bought at the tip of a sword.

The from The Christian History Institute. “Soon after the conversion of the Roman emperor Constantine, though the first use of force was not designed to convert pagans but to correct dissident Christians. Augustine, the great bishop of Hippo in North Africa in the late fourth and early fifth century, was faced with a dissident sect, the Donatists. Augustine wanted to bring them back in the orthodox fold, and he agonized about whether it was permissible to use coercion to do so.

Eventually he decided it was, and one biblical text that persuaded him was the parable of the great banquet (Luke 14:16–24). A rich man gives a feast, and when no one he invites shows up, he tells his servants to go out and “Compel (force) people to come in.” From then on the misery inflicted on humanity accelerated, all at the beckon of one of its now most heralded and oft quoted fathers.

As Christianity grows, it also grows intolerant. And by the 9th century virtually no believers object to forced coercion any more. This coincides with Christianity becoming the most populous religion of all the known world but China. By the 11th century it was a matter of fact. Christians had become the great Satan.

“There’s no sense in pretending this was an exceptional missionary tactic; for many centuries, it was the method of choice among Christian rulers and missionaries. The conversion of much of Europe and of Latin America is unimaginable without the sword”.(1)(Christian History Institute)

If only the likes of Loy, Mel, Brainyawn, and others would be a tenth as sensible. Christianity unfettered leads to force and division. Not just an occasional beating, but widespread murder wherever it took root. As surely as watering a seed to make it grow, Christian faith leads to barbarism—even in the great bishops.

Frustration builds as no one really believes the rhetoric and failed excuse of a religion. It’s pathetic results speaks for itself, so apologetics must present a monotony of sophist confusion to keep the sheep engaged. And if that’s not enough, maximum force.

Author: jim-

One minute info blogs breaking the faith trap.

129 thoughts on “Why By Force? The Heralded Fathers”

  1. Forced faith is so different than genuine belief. Whether it is a huge religious war or something as small as a parent imposing their belief on their children, forced conversions or forced acceptance is unacceptable. I just wrote about my own past regrets about taking what I knew as “fact” and passing it on to my son. It wasn’t an in your face “do this or else” situation but more of a subliminal influence. I had doubts about my faith but showed confidence to a child who saw a strong and sure dad and he submitted to what he was taught. Whenever you have a situation where one party says “I know the truth and you need to believe it” and another party who feels intimidated by the first party, you have submission, not true belief. Why do we feel the need to tell someone else who is doing just fine, that they are living their life wrong and they need you to lead them to the right place? If they didn’t need your God before you told them about him, why do they need him now? To rawgod’s point, if the Christians’ god is obvious as they claim he is, we all would see it…and we don’t. Despite tenacious Christian efforts, nearly 3/4 of the world’s population don’t believe in the Christian god. That’s an underwhelming performance by an all powerful god.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. My kids like me a lot better now that I don’t preach at them. That’s what it was, unfortunately. Every moment was a teaching moment and was overbearing and judge mental. Subtle, but force and guilt and expectations for jesus. Thanks Ben.

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    2. As stupid as this might sound, Ben, 3/4 of the world don’t count, they aren’t white. Everyone knows only white people have souls, and people of colour are still animals… Arrogance seems to be a necessity of being christian, maybe not for all, but for a large majority. I often wonder why missionaries ever wasted their time going to non-white continents, or areas. Look at what was done right here in North America: genocide of the non-white aboriginals was pretty much the political agenda of that era, and still has some who still want that today. White is right? Wrong!!!!!

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      1. rawgod … I think you made a VERY good point: Arrogance seems to be a necessity of being christian. And internet “discussions” bring this out time and again.

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        1. It seems to be their “go-to” weapon, but hey, they are human, their god gave them dominion over just about everything.
          But I have a question for them, “What colour were Adam and Eve?” I bet it wasn’t white, just like Jesus would have been olive, if he actually did exist. Adam and Eve, most likely black…

          Liked by 1 person

          1. I was reading you yesterday John, and it’s so funny, even when dead to rights they can’t see it. The artificial world of theirs we live in was quite perplexing to Isaiah. Lol

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          2. hahaha!

            He is soooo stuck in his “worldview” that it would take a crane to pull him out … if even then. I admit I don’t understand a lot of what you present, but what I DO understand is his consistent denial of everything and everyone that doesn’t cater to his viewpoint. So long as you KHB (I’ll let you figure that one out), he’s happy. But once anyone offers any kind of disagreement or counter argument, he (figuratively) runs the other way while throwing grenades as he goes in an effort to blow up the other person’s viewpoint.

            I have to ask … do you think I get attacked because my questions/comments are so much more “down to earth”? IOW, they are at the heart of things … not decorated with “ontological” reasoning.

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            1. He can be quite weird, I must say.

              He attacks everyone, but he does seem to have a soft spot for denegrading you especially. And you might be right; it’s the simple arguments that throw him completely.

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            2. He has serious problems grasping what is real and what is imagination. He uses word games to support word games, then goes completely off the rails when this is pointed out.

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            1. He actually does not understand what he is trying to argue and it all spirals inward until he is left with ”Goddidit” and then it implodes.

              Yet he refuses to spell out exactly what he means but rather claims that dissenters simply cannot possible understand because atheism is ontologically incoherent.
              A WTF statement if ever there was.

              This might be a bit off track but it is an excellent article that you may want to nick a few points from. I thought it exceptionally well articulated.

              With Jim’s leave,

              https://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Real-actual-logical-proof-there-is-no-Christian-God-20130422

              Liked by 2 people

            2. There is no way to rationalize what’s written in the gospel and what he is claiming. I always smile when he writes how he loves science!
              And right in front of him is Jesus talking about Noah!

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            3. And in the same chapter he says god can’t be found. He’s right about that. Only in your head when one caves to the pressure of religions overbearance and the neurons short out. There you dingbats! Wham!

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            4. It’s not like I haven’t explained this argument in great detail before. I don’t have the time to keep going around his merry-go-round that goes nowhere.

              If his argument has been fully explained ask him why he continues to post the argument and then when people such as John challenge him does he complain that he has already fully explained it.

              Liked by 2 people

            5. His use of disengenuity is disgusting. ”Faith” in science?

              Sorry, we seem have hijacked the thread somewhat, Jim.

              I have raised the issue before about what the Roman Empire could not do with a sword and a plethora of gods the Roman Catholic church managed with one god and a sword.
              Very clever of them!

              At least the Romans were, after there own fashion, honest. Brutally so.
              When you read the official decrees that were issued by the church regarding obligatory acceptance/ worship, especially when one takes into account Papal infallibility it’s no wonder they felt nothing but glee to be able to set forth and convert – I think the phrase turn or burn best suits.

              Liked by 1 person

            6. I understand your case was quite mild and recovery swift?
              Unfortunately, any surgeon dealing with Mel or Branyan and their ilk would have to go in through the rear and a drain plunger would be the surgical instrument of necessity. Sad , really, but what can you do?

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            7. Somehow the term eunuch comes to mind. I’m guessing having one ontology would make you a Branyan, who controls Mel’s harem. No ontologies is better than one, so it must be a religious sickness. No?

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            8. That’s where you can always catch Mel out. He needs his god to be completely separate, unknowable, BUT he also needs his god to meddle in this world, shuffling genes, throwing the odd meteor or two, changing the atmosphere. He loathes being asked about these things.

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            9. I’ll have to contact Norman Vincent Peale and change suits to have this argument…again. I would say Mel’s in relapse, but he’s yet to come out of it. He must have sin in his life. Probably masturbation. He’s going blind hehe

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            10. That’s where he’s terribly dishonest. You can take him through a certain subject, patiently play the game of whack-a-mole as he dodges and evades, then finally after dozens of uneccessary comments show him where his argument completely fails… Only to have him repeat the exact same bloody thing a week or two or three later.

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  2. IMO it takes but one non-believer to put the lie to any christian truth. Truth is something that is so obvious it cannot be denied. So if I deny it, or you deny it, it cannot be truth because it is not obvious to everyone.
    However, the illogic of this is demonstrated by members of the Flat Earth Society, who say they still believe the earth is flat. The question is, what do these people know? Is it possible to know something but still believe the opposite? I think this is possible, and probable. So does their disbelief put the lie to a round earth?
    No, it cannot. The earth has been proven to be round many times over. Meanwhile, god has never been proven to exist, nor has any religion ever been proven to be right. Therein lies the difference. IMO.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. The brainwashed religious nuts can’t see they are trapped. They live in denial in a swirling pool of hatred, fear, feelings of superiority, racist views, science denigration, meanest and lack of joy. But because they live in alternate reality, they don’t see it. It takes a brave and intelligent person willing to think for themselves, to come away from it.

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      1. What do you mean by walk away? Is it away from the error of the men who twist the truth or from Christianity itself. Cos Christianity isn’t a religion but a lifestyle empowered by God.

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        1. The effort tho distance christianity from religion isn’t working. The fruits of the faith are now in full view. Collapse happened years ago as everyone is now going their own way, picking and choosing what they want to believe, dismissing what they don’t, even now saying it’s not a religion. Goodness sir, contradictions just fly out like laser beams. Ultimately, Christianity has been a wrecking ball to most of the world over, and the outcomes haven’t kept their promises. Thanks for stopping by.

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          1. Yeah, all you say is true. But these alterations are only done by people who have refused live the true christian life which is “faith expressing itself in deeds of love”…

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            1. No religion has a monopoly on Love over any other. Even regular people without religion repeatedly trump the god in the Bible, but God seems to get all the credit regardless. Whether there is a god or not, it’s up to us to make this whole thing work. Hope you are well today. Glad you stopped by.

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            2. Maybe we both are referring to two different things in regards to our responsibilities in making things work. This is what I mean. As Christians or any man who desires to know God, we must first believe that He exists (Hebrews 11:6). Then that person must consciously seek to know this God through personal study of the Bible, guided by the Holy Spirit of God cause no one knows the thoughts of a man except his spirit and the Holy Spirit in us reveals God to us (1 corinthians 2:11) by making the words we read in the Bible come alive, which has power to transform our minds and make sharp our wisdom in knowing God (Ephesians 1:17-20). That is why without the Holy Spirit, the words of the Bible are as dead as a Harry Potter novel.
              It is also our responsibility to live out the words we have read in the Bible. I like how the Bible puts it, that we “work out”. (Philippians 2:12-13). We are to work out our salvation for it is God who makes us want to know Him and do His will.
              My story is just on how I was met by God and taken out of a dirty life to that of knowledge of His Son.

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  4. Mel, Loy, brainyawn etc. are not about religion or religious beliefs. They are solely about being obnoxious, arrogant and feeling superior.
    I follow two blogs where the blogger is a Christian (but not at all a nutcase) and these two are in no way shape or form like the above mentioned. It’s like day and night.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Even if I believed in Christianity, I would have to raise serious eyebrows and give away part of my integrity to align with such fraught. I think many are stuck in tradition and fear or don’t know what else to do so they keep rolling with it. Everybody can’t be wrong, can they?

      Liked by 1 person

  5. The Norse have various stories about forced conversion. Such as the king deciding it was better for everyone to convert and stay alive, then to fight and everyone die. The Norse Polytheism never died out (consider Iceland), it went underground.

    A lot of folkways are really Polytheism gone underground. Also, in places such as Ireland, the saints are really Celtic Gods and Goddesses. The holy wells are still kept by orders of nuns.

    Elsewhere, Christians chopped down holy groves and built churches at Pagan holy sites. They couldn’t get rid of Polytheism, so they adapted it into Christianity. Many Catholic feast days are actually old Roman or Celtic holidays. Halloween and Christmas, come to mind.

    So Christians did kill a lot of people and kept on killing them, but they really couldn’t stamp out Polytheism. They keep trying though.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Excellent post. Reminds me of a quote I once read that the great Holy Roman Emperor, Charlemagne, supposedly said to potential converts whilst he was traveling around conquering lands and spreading the religion of peace and love, Christianity. “You can join with my god, or I can send you to meet him.” Ah, the love of Christianity! Makes me warm all over.

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  7. And, alas, it continues to this day. The Westboro Baptist church spouting its own particular brand of hatred against the LGBT community, along with other so-called “ministers of god” who preach intolerance and fear against whatever scapegoat they happen to find convenient are just the more visible tip of the iceberg. The same thing is going on in hundreds of churches every day.

    It seems that these religions cannot exist without having some kind of scapegoat to blame for the problems of the world.

    Liked by 3 people

      1. The way to be nuttier is to show just a little less social restraint than WBC. It’s all in there, but many are afraid to let it out do to the attached stigma and repercussions.

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      1. The Bible writers and scholars, and now the preachers continue to tweak and evolve the religion, masterfully playing on basic human psychology. Now the show is run completely by professional con men. Tis true. Quote away. They knew you would.

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        1. I’m a believer in Jesus cause I’ve been touched by Him through the Words in the Bible. You wouldn’t understand that’s why u call it sweet deceptions from authors…

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          1. I was a part of that charade for fifty years. Careful, your jumping into the no true scotsman fallacy. It’s an unfriendly accusation at best that holds no credibility, but credulity. I put the Bible to the rest as well as prayer, tithes, charity, it is not god but mere people that make this work.

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            1. Likewise. No regrets yet, but maybe someday he will choose to reveal himself, or some evidence to me. I have not been chosen for that yet.

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            2. In all honesty John, I played that game for many, many years. The psychology behind it is brilliant. But alas, he never answered me. I split hairs to convince myself, but in my time of crisis I realized I’ve been doing this whole gig on my own forever. Nothing has really changed for me except I don’t believe a word of it. To the contrary, what we observe in the Bible and real life is, there is no god of love. Nice words, but no prayer has ever been answered in the history of the world. All the excuses for gods wisdom and what not. It doesn’t add up.

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            3. Hmmm, it’s really strange how we both see the same thing in completely opposite ways and hold fast to what we’ve experienced (cause, at least, experience is real). I wanna know your story. What you’ve believed and how God ‘failed’ you.

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            4. It isn’t that we see things in completely different ways. I see exactly what you are saying, and I too, covered for the inadequacies of faith with my own apologetic endeavors. Hell, it was my life for many years. What brought it all together for me was my own observations of how things really were. God is love—meanwhile in the Sudan and Burundi… and the bible isn’t filled with love. There’s a couple of revisions in the New Testament trying to cover some tracks, but the Old Testament is just as valid and used today and it’s horrible. I could not in good conscious align with the excuses for the outright immorality of god. So I prayed, fasted, studied, honed my craft of detailed hairsplitting explanations to excuse the immorality of god, and the outcome of brutality in his name. My faith was driving away and there is no god to hear you. It was all a ruse. I have a little poem I’ll past a link. It briefly outlines my process.

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            5. You may have experienced what you think I am going through now. But I am not struggling with whether or not to believe the love of God for humanity simply because I have experienced His love and no crisis around me can change that. I live in a community where people are being killed almost regularly, people suffer to feed and live well, the list of horrors go on. But that doesn’t mean God’s love ain’t there or He is a cruel entity to allow such things happen to seemingly or ‘good people’. God has standards of righteousness and justice. He sees all the wrongs done to humanity. But you know the law of sowing and reaping. All who sin must pay for their sin. And judging by the truth that everyone sins, everyone is under obligation to pay for their sins.
              The fact that you don’t see or feel the oxygen molecule doesn’t mean it’s not there.

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            6. This is doctrinal delusion and coercion, coupled with threats of hell and regret. This is the psychological part I mentioned. Christianity says they bring hope, but the reality is they manipulate any doubts or human foible and provide a sales pitch. Did you know not one person in the history of the world knows when they’ve been brainwashed? It takes a third party, an outside expert to identify and treat the person. I am the third party expert Selbol. You have been duped.

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            7. You have been duped.” I agree, Jim. In fact, not only Selbol, but every single person that believes in the Christian God. As Proverbs so aptly puts it: “There’s none so blind as those who will not see.”

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            8. I still really do hope you don’t regret this for all eternity. Cause there is a way that seem right to man but the end thereof is destruction. I feel your struggle with knowing this God and the sad end to this story.

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            9. This does sound like a threat doesn’t it? That funny. I spent most of my life bullying people with those exact words. Creating fear is the hope is jesus they talk about.

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            10. I can say the same thing about you. I do not have any belief in god. That’s pretty clear-cut. It’s hard to agree with your religious attempts when there is a better explanation. I don’t sort of believe a little, so maybe? No, there is no man in the sky.

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            11. I regret reading comments like that. That’s .3 seconds off my short life I’ll never get back. Besides, Christianity is a false religion. Islam is and the Koran are the ONLY paths to God. Here’s some truth for ya’! Quran (2:65-66): “Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers.”

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            12. Yeah, we Muslims (wink wink) have a boat-load of sayings to give to Christian infidels. Sadly, Christians are so lost in the delusions Paul created, they can’t see the forest of truth (Allah) trough the trees. Oh well, more room for us true believers in Heaven I guess, eh.

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  8. Wouldn’t it be with the murder of Ananias and his wife, Sapphira, in Acts? The apostles* killed them for not living up to the ‘ideal’ of the commune/community.

    *I say apostles because even though the story implies Yhwh killed them I had an apologist argue it was the apostles who did the killing. Either way, two people were murdered.

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    1. I’ll bet they got some good backslapping out of that one. Your probably right since his followers have always done the dirty work, then credit goes to the master for his fine judgement. God is love.

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          1. They lied to the Spirit of God. They wanted self glorification by their act of greed and selfishness. No one asked Him to sell his land, no one asked him to bring the money to the church. But he did brought part of the money and claimed it was all of it. I think he and his wife died as an example of God’s sovereignty over the affairs of men. At the same time, it happened so we know that God knows all our dealings and reveals it to whoever he wants to. Lastly, it confirms the words of the bible that Judgement begins in the church (1 Peter 4:17) and when our obedience is perfected, we as believers in Jesus will judge even angels (1 Corinthians 6:3), and God will pardon any sins we pardon and hold any we don’t pardon (John 20:23).

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            1. Pretty sure the church folks did his bidding for him. That’s the way it always works. This time was no different. The excuse for religions violent force has always been “gods will”. Violent times, violent men invented a violent god to justify their horrors.

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            2. You have to tell that to those that still do the manipulating and lying. The word is not out. Christianity has had a great love affair with torture. The only reason it stopped is the world is less religious, not more. Secular laws protect us now, not so lucky back in the day.

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            3. That’s because you don’t live in an Islamic state. I don’t deny the horrors done by some Christians in the past. That is not the way to propagate Christianity cause even God didn’t force anyone to believe in Jesus. Jesus didn’t force anyone. His disciples didn’t force anyone as seen in Romans 12:1. I know of many Christians who were brutalized by people they showed love to and never retaliated, by so doing, they won the whole communities for God even after their death. I tell you sir, our only friend and protector is Jesus. Secular laws are against the person of Jesus Christ and His work of redemption.

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  9. The website for the so-called “Christian History Institute” cites no academic affiliation, nor any academic qualifications for its staff. Lector emptor.

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    1. Sounds like you could work there Loy. Do you have any links to prove your opinions yet? All you seem to do is circumvent and try to cleverly wiggle your way around inconvenient truths. That is the long history of your faith that you all got to write until recently.

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    2. Genetic Fallacy. You have to do better.

      You have disputed nothing with this argument. The article is an interview with a person with a Ph.D. in history who authored 7 books. If you would like to refute this professor, I suggest you do the research.

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      1. I do t play that particular argument game with Loy any more. He has nothing so he resorts to discredit the credible, and if I post links he just dismisses it anyway. Thanks Swarn. The source is a pretty convincing reality.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. Yeah, he uses some pretty common deflection strategies and argumentation fallacies to make his point of view seem more sophisticated. I’ve been reasonably disappointed on our other thread, because he hasn’t really countered my points, but just moves the goalposts.

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          1. I don’t think that’s accurate. We agree that science can link behavioral patterns (e.g. cooperation) with an outcome (e.g., survival). We agree (or so I thought) that science alone cannot establish moral first principles (e.g., that survival in and of itself is “good”). That takes the powers of conscience and moral reasoning.

            So what goal posts moved?

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            1. @LOY

              I don’t think

              At long last. Three words of undeniable truth. Congrats!
              You can go now. Thanks for playing, and please be careful the door doesn’t hit you on the arse as you leave.
              Bye!

              Liked by 1 person

      1. I’m being somewhat facetious, but conservatives, many trump supporters and the current evangelicals and fundamentalists want their religious views becoming law and changing the US to a non secular government..namely Christianity.

        And some are believers in the end times and look forward to it. Some believe the earth is flat. Some believe gays should be put to death. Many believe the universe is on 6000 years old and on and on.
        So yes they are as I stated above, although not a true political party….yet

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  10. They have controlled the entire system of colonialism and capitalism. Now we are still forced to play, or become impoverished in even deeper misery that the system generates already. And politics today is an extension of the faith. Presidents, judges, congress, it’s all Christianity’s doing and they suck ass at it.

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  11. Do NOT let any active, hard-line Christian EVER tell you that Christ/Christology is not about political manipulation, coercion, or exploitation. It is undeniably unequivocally is beyond doubt! Hell…

    …it originally comes from Imperial Rome, one of the MOST coercive, exploitative, manipulating Empires in the history of the civilized world. It continues to this day. Period. End of discussion. 😉 😇 “God Bless America. God Bless Capitalism & Free-enterprise!”

    Liked by 4 people

  12. I was one of those Christians who looked down on those in the past who converted by force (“they weren’t true Christians, we’re much better now etc”). But really, do you think Christianity would have been anywhere near as big now if it weren’t for those forced conversions? I’m going to go further and say it probably wouldn’t still be around today.

    Liked by 5 people

    1. We’d most likely be reading about it as all the other failed religions. Best estimates say about 90% of natives in the americas were killed off. Then it was forced catechism 5 days a week and service to the church if you valued your life. Funny how the one religion that survived is the one that would be most beneficial to die out. It’s going, just not quick enough.

      Liked by 5 people

      1. Perhaps it was beneficial at one time, well it certainly benefited certain people. By ‘beneficial’ I mean in an evolutionary sense, not that I think it was good. As for now? yeah it’s dying out in the more developed countries, but not so much in the poorer countries, perhaps one day they will see the light too and drop a belief in the imaginary.

        Liked by 3 people

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