For quite some time I have been baffled by the devotion of the black church. I understand the sense of community and unity, but…
Using deception is nothing new to religion. Tampering with the words and chapters of the Bible, even in their own book is grounds for a trip to hell (another neat invention).
“A new exhibit at a Washington, D.C., museum featuring an abridged version of the Bible sheds light on how Christian missionaries converted enslaved Africans to Christianity by teaching them the Gospel… except the parts about freedom, equality and resistance”.
Today’s Christians do the same. Cherry pick a few feel good parts and bear testimony, manipulate emotion and herd instincts, declaring any positive emotion god-sent, while leaving out the ugly. Like I said before, compile the relevant parts of the Bible and you could produce it in a pamphlet.
It amazes me how an oppressed people can celebrate the rule of their past and present. Why there is one Black Christian on the planet strikes incredulity and head scratching. A host on another blog, Harry, told me one reason; it was a black man that carried jesus’ cross—another propaganda—Cyrenes were Jews and Greek) Welcome to the faith! The next life will make it all worth the prison sentence your mind has endured. Once the culture and language and history was destroyed, they are now set to assist the mental oppression through faith.
The church will use any omission, wordbending, or outright lie to convert, coverup, or enslave any person. Thank humans for secular humanism to fight this nonsense.
We’ve seen the tradition continue today. There is nothing the apologists won’t hide or deflect or defend to bring one to Jesus. From the point of a sword to deleting points in the word, no deception is out of bounds—for Christ sake!
TheCommonAtheist 
The first time I read anything about slavery, it put the cap on my disbelief, & I never had any doubts again. I was 19, & absolutely sickened.
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Makes one wonder about all the other removed and “missing” parts, doesn’t it? What else was not good enough for us slaves?
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That’s for sure!
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Exactly why I do not participate in organized religion. The criminal will commit crime. Ever heard of church casino night? Funny how their greed so easily takes over.
I am a Christian and I believe in God. I know we do not see eye to eye, yet this is one of the many reasons why I avoid all groups and organizations. They always have ulterior motives.
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I don’t have any issues with personal spirituality. It was difficult at first for me to recognize your stance early on. My apologies for the abrasive tone. What is it that draws you to Christianity, vs say, Buddhism or Panpsychism that would free you from the umbrella of Christian contradiction and promote a personal journey?
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No worries Jim. I take no offense. What I believe in is the grace of God. No matter the life I lead, Jesus died for my sins. I am saved by that one simple act. It is the most freeing feeling in the world.
I’ve never looked into Buddhism or Panpsychism to be honest.
We all have decisions to make in our own time. Some accept others don’t. It is what it is Jim. As I stated before, you believe what you believe and the same is true of me.
If I came across abrasive, I apologize as well.
I am no better than anyone else, my acts cannot save me. We are all here and Jesus told us to love one another. Yet we seem to hate under the guise of love.
I have no ill will, just a desire to speak openly and honestly. I figure the more we communicate, the better we all get along. Even if it means we never cross paths.
Getting along doesn’t mean partnership, simply allowing our neighbors to lead their own lives as we want to lead our own lives as well.
To each their own.
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Does it concern you at all that the vast majority of religions and their followers are regional, based on birth and the religion of the local? How can yours be the one? Just lucky you weren’t born in Iran?
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Plenty of Christians all over the world Jim. I spent time in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Thailand, Korea, Eastern Europe, etc…
Plenty of Christians everywhere. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are probably the only religions that are in every country, with numerous believers.
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My observation, without the tactics and deception, force and coercion, it wouldn’t be in every country. Are you accepting a faith that was mandated by force for 1000 years? Even the good ol mormons use deception in their missionary work. They all do. Yet, somehow here we are. The religious world has an idea without merit or proof. “Prove all things”, well, it failed. Not an ounce of it passes the litmus test. I find it interesting that no one actually lives the precepts, except grace possibly. If one applies the biblical teachings in all honesty, they leave the faith by the fact it doesn’t work. By faith they stay, by fact they leave. Is it possible they only know the words? A good portion of atheists I know, lived the gospel with every devotion. Nothing. No signs followed, no prayers answered. Jesus said greater works than these will follow them that believe. It’s not true. Nobody is fed with less fishes, no water turned in to whiskey (that would be a greater work) and more illness and suffering abounds, in spite of a 2.4 Billion member majority.
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I think you’re talking about Craig Christ, he turned the water into Coors Light. It may seem like tactics and deception, that is until people learned to read on a mass scale, from there you can make up your on mind.
Any theocracy or tyranny will never make people truly believe in their mind and in their heart. Just look at North Korea, do you think the people there really and truly believe the things they say and profess about Kim?
That is why kings, dictators, queens, presidents, chancellors, etc. all want to remove God and faith. they know that they will never truly rule, when their people look to God.
Everyone wants to be God, everyone is afraid that they will be powerless. The human spirit cannot be contained or legislated. Thousands of years of rebels have shown us this.
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Others have said they prefer priests to generals. More can be controlled by religion than an army. I believe that. The truth is there is very little difference between church and state when 90% of the lawmakers and governors are of the same faith, and in cahoots with the money and power. They peddle division. That is their true power base.
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Why else would people demand that religion is law or that science is law? All of these folks are too weak to simply allow the individual to choose for themselves.
I believe and have faith for me and me alone. I cannot control the thoughts or desires of others. I do not wish to control anyone, since I myself desire freedom, so even though I do not agree with many, I want them to remain free so I will remain free as well.
There is more order and efficiency in chaos than there is in any control.
Like geese or ducks flying in a V, they figure it out. Why can’t we?
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Quote: “Like geese or ducks flying in a V, they figure it out. Why can’t we?” Well ‘we’ have figured out many of nature’s forces, it’s just that we don’t do harmony. As you say, there is more order and efficiency in chaos than in any control. A contradiction, certainly, and only true because ‘we’ have yet to understand harmony. Sadly though, all religious gods thrive on disharmony; on fear and slavish obedience. So as long as they exist, ‘we’ will never know peace or harmony. Such concepts are inimical to the designs of all divinities because all such entities (real or imagined) are psychopathic in nature; demanding blood sacrifices; life hating, misogynist and genocidal. The proof: history and religions’ own writings. Even the great “god” of Christianity had to be sacrificed to death on an instrument of torture that Christians worship in endless guises. If he had been executed by guillotine, Christian churches would all have guillotines at their entrances, on their roofs and in their sanctuaries. Being French, I used to think about that. To me it wasn’t a pretty picture, why should a cross be any more acceptable? Symbol of sadism, a sadism that permeates all organized religions.
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And here we go again….. I guess you just can’t leave well enough alone.
What was that you were saying about harmony?
I guess you’ll never be able to just allow people to be free will you Sha’Tara?
All I hear is slander since you obviously do not agree.
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I think you meant to cry out, “Fake news!” Slander? Who/whom was I slandering? God? God is a chimera. What if I’d said the Little Mermaid was fake? Would I be slandering Disney studios? Would I be facing a lawsuit? The character is fake! I’ll tell you what caused your response: you can’t deny the truth so attack the truth teller. Why not challenge me on the points I made rather than myself? I wasn’t attacking you, or denying you your freedom to believe whatever you want. Believe all things, believe in nothing is my motto. You can tell me you believe in pink elephants and I wouldn’t have a problem with that. Tell me to worship pink elephants and I do have a problem with that. If believers in pink elephants perform evil deeds in their names, I am duty bound to call them up on it. All the more so if at one time I was a member of the pink elephant religion and asked to partake of said evil. Can we start again, here?
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Churches vary tremendously ; the Church of England is rather staid and even at the morning after service coffee , breaks up into cliques.
My old Mum love to gossip with all the old ladies I’m sure many of them went to church for the companionship.
It is a common misconception that churches are full of believers , although of course many of them would claim some sort of faith.
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Religion, by its very nature, is deception. Politics, it must be remembered, grew out of organized religion, so no surprise politics is an utterly corrupt game. What’s the First Great Deception? One Invisible God who is all powerful, all knowing, all seeing. The Second Great Deception: if you obey God’s precepts and laws as interpreted by your religion you will be a good Servant and you will spend eternity in heaven. The Third Great Deception: that can only be understood and accepted by faith. In other words, there is absolutely no reality behind any of it. If one reads the ultimate definition of faith, if there was any reality to any of it, faith itself would become null and void and the wonderful unreality sustained by faith would no longer be valid. The trick of the religious trade is to hide the fact that to have faith one has to first have faith. It’s a question of what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Faith is a chimera.
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Faith to have faith. I dig that. Can’t get much easier or more stifling. Belief was never an endgame, but only the beginning of the search.
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Exquisite summary of the playbook. Thanks for sharing.
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In my opinion, naive as it is, religion is based on numbers. The more believers in god’s army, the stronger the power. I find it amazing that white christians hate black christians, yet happily count them in their numbers when telling us how many believers there are–can the majority all be wrong? Of course the majority can be wrong, but not in their eyes. They have the numbers, even if they don’t associate with them. I know you love the word cherry-picking, and that is what they do with their numbers. They all count as christians, but of course the whites are more valuable than the black, or other-coloured. Could it be any other way. After all, god is white, is he not? Christ certainly was not olive-skinned, but white, with blue eyes. Pardon me while I barf my copper guts out.
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They certainly have division while at the same time covering their bases. 30-40,000 sects incorporating something for everyone—even the pride of numbers. In reality they’ve each gone their own way and are disconnected from the source (if there ever was one) Christianity is only a name. That is the best agreement they have.
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I’ve always been amazed by religious imperialism… insofar as missionaries were such good marketers. Literally selling people something they have no need for… I suppose it helps when your ideology is backed up with promise of a grisly, painful death should you not convert…
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They were very effective everywhere they planted their flag. We’ve been paying the price for those good navigation skills a long time. Selling what we don’t need…do you have a lightning rod on your house? Ooh man, what if a storm comes? Fear is still our best seller. Good to see you Jo.
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Religion has always played the role of fifth columnists to imperialism. Then it turns around and plays the role of revolutionary against its master. Trust neither for it is always the same beast and its goal is dominance.
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Agreed button smashed!!
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“Why there is one Black Christian on the planet strikes incredulity and head scratching.”
It’s an enigma. Amnesia, perhaps?
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The negroes loved to sing their spiritual songs on the cotton plantations and those have passed into musical genera. I can hear my aunt playing ‘ nobody knows the trouble I’m in : nobody knows but Jesus ‘ she might follow that up with Swing low sweet chariot comming for to carry me home .
The Christian religion appeals to the destitute , heartbroken , lossed , homeless , it has the perfect figure in the outcast Christ who was crucified.
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That makes it sound like a pity party. I think you’re right, but I don’t see people that way. I think the wo-is-me-down-trodden-days could be over by now without the reminders of how bad we all had it every day. I have more respect for every soul than to live like that.
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That’s exactly what it was they were slaves there was no escape. We will all come to a place of no escape when we meet the great reaper and many fear that dreadful moment . Some are trapped in poverty and others with debilitating conditions , often I read how people feel trapped by the monotony of the daily grind . I have been in the relentless fast lane where there is little rest and dependants who rely on you ; now I’m in the quiet backwater of retirement ( a place many never see) , I can breathe , stretch my arms , read WordPress.
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I pulled out to the country in 97′. I’ve had to commute quite a bit til fairly recently, but when I’m home I can’t see another house or hear anyone. Backwater is goood!!
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That sounds lonely but the tentacles of the internet reach everywhere. I’m not so lucky I have a few neighbours but we live on a an unbuilt road or track . At the back is wasteland ( I love wasteland it’s the most useful land of all) , this ends in the sea wall and I can often hear the grumbling ocean as it waits for us to be gone. The sails of an old restored windmill are visible along the coast and it is an area for caravans which are ready for summer occupants.
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Amnigma can be our neologism for the day.
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I live in South Africa – where Jesus sanctioned Apartheid, didn’t you know?
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I do know. God is love and confusion.
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Same for me when I think of indigenous peoples. With the treatment they received from the Christians, why in the world would they continue to practice the faith of our forefathers? I could see why they did it at first. Starvation, murder, threat, disease, loss of home, land etc. Conversion by force. Survival? Convert. What the hell else could they do? But now. The current generations now. Why do they hang on to the faith of our forefathers? It certainly was not their faith when our ancestors arrived here and took over. Maybe it’s still about survival.
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The Native Americans have much of it going on too. Steve Ruis made a great comment. They came with a bible and no land, now we have a bible and they have the land. Masterful!!
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They can tell the slave how God loves “a servant’s heart”…. 😂
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There is a servant in us all : I wanted to serve my country that’s why I went into politics ; I joined up to serve the nation and fight the enemy.
Some companies award the gold pocket watch to long serving workers , but to those higher up the ranks a golden handshake.
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I have often asked the same question Jim in regards to why black people would follow the same religion that was used to oppress them. I asked an African-American friend the question once and he didn’t have a great answer other than sort of saying that had inspired them to rise up. I mean that’s what Christianity was initially is a movement to rise out of oppression, and Jesus, if he existed, was really a revolutionary. So in some ways it makes sense, but I guess for people like you and me, the problem is trying reconcile following any sort of religion that can be both used to justify the oppression and also rise out of it. There is too much contradiction about to make me think that it’s a sound practice. And then when you take into account just how Christianity killed so many through just the spread of disease as Europeans moved across their lands in imperialist fervor, you just don’t see God doing a lot of protection. I mean why kill so many from influenza in small pox when if Jesus is the obvious answer God could have kept them all alive and instantly had even more Christians. For the black community their history is so important to them and you’d think that the history would really spell out Christianity as flawed enterprise from the get go.
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Thats the exceeding cleverness of the Christian religion putting others to shame . God did not come down from his exalted place to rule , but to serve , classically shown in the foot-washing story. Interestingly it works very well in business ‘ he’s a good boss he does not mind getting his hands dirty ‘.
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I had no idea such a book was printed.
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But wait! There’s more. Much was deleted and altered away from us as well. Why do you think that would be necessary? We’re all slaves if we’re in it.
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True that.
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Let me throw this out there:
You’re born into oppression and kept illiterate. Life is a struggle, but you’re told things will be much better in an afterlife. This gives you hope. You teach this to your children. They teach it to their children. Slavery ends, but the belief system is now firmly entrenched and continues to propagate.
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I do have empathy for the situation. You are right in many cases, slavery has ended, but the indoctrination remains. Devastating generation beyond themselves, the former missionaries and traders were pretty keen on manipulating human nature. Thanks sir!!
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Fascinating post.
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Re “It amazes me how an oppressed people can celebrate the rule of their past and present. Why there is one Black Christian on the planet strikes incredulity and head scratching.” The answer, of course, is “indoctrination, indoctrination, indoctrination.” I just read a Christian creationist screed by a Native American. This was shocking because of the quote: “When the white man came here we had the land and he had the Bible. Now we have the Bible and they have the land.” That’s a fair exchange, right? Oh, and your reward will come after you are dead … honest it will!
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Damn Steve! Wow. How observant and quotable, that phrase tells all!
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Given the number of religions and Christian denominations to choose from, I will never stop wondering why any person of color would select Southern Baptist. They do sing well and many are pleasant and friendly peeps, but that denomination has history. And yes…
Selective scripture cherry-picking (or Cafeteria Catholic to some) creates blind spots so that we can feel good about something cuz that’s how it makes us feel good. Like rainbows and unicorns do, right? Blessed be those in denial.
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Joining the Southern Baptist for a African American is the less extreme version of a gay person joining Westboro Baptist church. I get it.
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I see your point. Full stop. And for some people this choice to participate in a church isn’t completely irrational. America has the highest per capita incarceration rates and virtually no social safety net. Add in mass migration and what results is a large percentage of people in dire straights without even family support. I think many people join churches because they provide some security. The church down the road from me offers free social opportunities, provides coats for children. meals for holidays and other forms of security such as scholarships. So yeah. it seems kind of weird on the outside looking in but I totally understand why it appeals to some people.
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In addition, as much as I dislike organize, prepackaged religion, I realize that a certain percentage of the population will always look for something outside themselves for fulfillment. Religion allows some of the benefit without putting in much effort. Whereas in a personal journey it requires some investigation. Good to see you. Thanks for the follow too, btw. I am intrigued by your blog as well.
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Thanks for the validation. Church membership is a funny thing. My mother in law has belonged to a church her entire life but dismisses a lot of the teachings as bible thumping. I asked her if this was not a kind of hypocrisy but she seemed unconcerned. She said she has never pretended to believe. As far as she and her friends were concerned it was a social club. One thing I appreciate about her church is the old school emphasis on giving; it isn’t about what they get but about opportunities to make the world a better place for those who are oppressed. I am terribly alarmed at the ‘prosperity gospel’ churches. That seems to me to be the worst of all possible outcomes.
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The writers set themselves up for it. They never really live the precepts they taught. The men of words, Paul in this case, hedged jesus with the golden ticket of the Pauline gospel.
“And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves—Thessalonians 5:12-13
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I went looking for something outside myself for fulfilment and settled on alcohol.
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Save me a chug or two.
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Why is ANYONE a Christian? Of any color/creed/nationality?
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Or woman? Really. To listen to some of these ladies excuse their place among men is pure brainwashing.
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Would someone born into a staunch old-school Catholic home and subsequently raised and taught in Catholic schools be qualified to answer that? From an adult perspective, I don’t know, but from a child, the way the propaganda/brainwashing is done, you believe that if you ever wanted to be a good person (having the least amount of sins to confess Sunday morning before mass so you can take communion) you have to be obedient to Jesus’ commands. I think that for some, certainly myself, it became a sort of addiction. Maybe a kind of competition with myself also. I wanted to be “that” person living a saintly life. Despite the necessary personal sacrifices, it was an attractive proposition. It could be done, I reasoned to myself. It took many years before I realized it could not be done and if I had had a propensity to slip into the run-of-the-mill hypocrisy, the pretend game, I might still be in there somewhere, likely as a religious. Fortunately my insistence on following the biblical precepts stripped of the false and goofy interpretations got me squarely in conflict with the “guardians” of the institution and they left me no choice but to leave.
As to those who remain within the whole hypocritical performance of giving money, praying, singing, chanting, attending regular meetings and etc., I guess it’s as was mentioned: a social club, without much meaning beyond some emotional moments quickly dissipated in dissipation. For others it comes back to the fear of hell, pure and simple.
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Growing up in the Catholic church our priests always did mission trips; I always thought they were just to help the impoverished communities but now I realize they were converting them. To be fair there are worse religions to be indoctrinated/tricked into, not to defend the church.
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Dear Jim ♡ ♡ Now you know that I come from the other side, but I have to agree with you on the cherry picking. It is terrible. Now having experienced many “experts” on God’s word I have felt the effects. It is like a prison. No room for learning something new or changing any views. To me creativity and learning is a must. If not I feel no longer alive.
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Withholding pertinent information is the way of most churches. Ok, all of them. We also have many portions deleted for us, reworded, reworked, and so it goes. ❤️🇳🇴😇
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Yes, and it is horrible! To me God is all about love ♡ ♡
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Like you!!
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❤
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Thank goodness for organizations like Black Nonbelievers! I am enjoying your blog. Being on the board of Recovering from Religion, I see the things you are writing about resonating within our community on a daily basis. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 🙂
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Thanks for stopping by. Every aspect is so connectedly intrusive to everyday life there is a lot to write about. Thanks for the compliment.
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You are so right! You’re welcome!
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Hey so I liked your post. I do agree that Christians often use deception to convert people. Picking out creation section an certain verses to make the bible say what they want it to say. However I could not help but notice that u did the very thing, that u condemned. U said that it was wrong for Christian to convert the slaves with a doctored version of the bible. But u never gave us the big picture about what the bible teaches about slavery. Leaving us with the impression that Christians are the authority of the teachings of Christianity. This is not true. The bible determines what Christianity is, anything added is a perversion of the original. So I agree that what they did was wrong, but I disagree that what they did was Christianity.
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Thanks. I’m assuming most people know about slavery in the Bible. We’ve covered it before and I do try hard to keep these posts pretty short. I know Christians continually try to separate themselves from the acts of Christendom and it’s members, but I do not afford them that luxury. The results time and time again produce the same oppressive behaviors. It’s a neat trick that we’ve become accustomed falling for, but I don’t buy it. See, nearly every Christian thinks the others are doing it wrong, but in reality it is them as well. On top of it all, the CEO of the company (Christ) gets a free pass when his teachings fail, and have failed to produce the promised results since the beginning. From the onset it has divided communities, families, ethnic groups and so forth. The attitude and teaching of the Bible is virtually a set of Jim Crow laws that put one group of people over another. And that does work every time. He should’ve known better, being god and all.
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Thanks for responding, I have some thought on your reply. However I don’t want to say something without knowing where u are coming from, I hate miscommunication, could u send me a link to one of your posts about the bible and slavery? I would apreasheat it.
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A few months back I had a WP glitch. Having trouble locating it with search terms. I think I have about 400 posts, but happy to answer any questions. Basically my stance on slavery is the drip-fed, late and archaic morality of the Bible that always lags behind the morality of mere men—Even today. Jesus (if he was even real) should have condemned the practice outright, but, he supported it in a slightly kinder version. Turns out love your neighbor didn’t include slaves. Deuteronomy 15 should’ve been the standard for strangers as well as hebrews, let alone slaves, but it never was. Anyway, all along religion through abrahamic faith has not held the highest standard of morality, even the Jains trump the entire bible with one sentence. If gods morality was superior to mans, this would be awfully clear to find. But it’s not.
Going to my daughters basketball game for now, but I’ll reply to whatever you have when I’m done.
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Thank you for the clarification! (I gotta know, how did the game go?)
Anyway ill start with the your first reply. You pointed out that Christianity has historically elevated one groulp over another, and this is historically true. However I disagree with your conclusion of this fact. The reason I disagree is because I believe the problem with savory and racism, is a more fundamental thing than the system you are using to run a nation. every signal system that has ever been attempted for a people to live by, has at some point, divided people and elevated one groulp over another. Jainisom is no exception. Because this happens at such a large scale, I think that the problem is not with the particular system we are using, but it is a more fundamental problem with the people who are apart of the system. Mainly pride, greed, hate, ect. These attributes that people have, always lead to a diverting from said system, resulting in evil being dun. Communism looks great on paper but Usaly ends in mass murderer. Even Jainisoms no killing laws were scriptural amended by its adherents because they wanted to kill. People will inevitably change the guidelines and morals that they have come up with or that have been give to them. It will happen.
Christianity stands alone because it is the only world view that takes this in to account. Let me explain. Christianity given by Jesus as recorded in the gospels has to be fallowd voluntarily. Therefore Christianity cannot be legislated. People can legislate Christian principles, but not the religion, if it is legislated then it is not Christianity.
Also christianty is, in of its self, not a law based system. The goal is not to get people to do the right thing. The goal is to change who they are. Cs Luis after all his study came to the conclusions that, (God was not looking for people to learn how to fallow his rules, he was looking for a people who are willing to be transformed in to a people of a certain quality. I apologize for the parifrase). other religions or systems, when trying to do personal transformation attempt to remove all the quality until there is nothing left. This is just not possible even the dalai lama has admitted to having desire. Christianitys goal is to remove the self forces and replace it with a focus for others and if perfection is not reached the failings are forgiven. That’s why the summation of Christianity is love god and love others.
So yes if you allow “christanity” to run a nation eventual you will have a Jim crow. However christian governments are a perverted form of Christianity and it is not surprising when they fails.
Also the moral guidelines in christanity are perfect for our world. Because it can hadel both the ideal and the messy. What I mean by that is this. Jesus taught that god hates divorce but the when asked, he told the people that god promoted it because peoples hearts where evil. So to prevent greater trajaty god alwed what he dispised. Christianity is the only moral system that can make the best of a bad situation and still transform the adherents. This is why I do not think it surprising that the socialization who first removed slavery on a permanent level had heavy Christian influence.
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I can agree with some of your reply. It’s late here so I’ll respond in the morning. We lost the game badly… oh well. Hey, what part of the world are you from? I’m in Washington state, almost to Canada. You?
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Sad day, there is always next game. I live in South Carolina. Have a good night.
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* civilisations
Sorry for any other spelling errors.
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Oh there’s plenty of that to go around. You seem to be blessed with abundance. Lol. No worries mate.
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Very good response and some things to consider. Here’s my expectation of abrahamic faith, and, as you point out, it is the people. No one is forced to be a Christian today. They are all voluntarily declaring their faith which should make this rather obvious. 80+% of our legislators and the vast majority of Americans are part of this volunteer force as you have stated. This being the case, where’s the bliss? Where are the signs that follow them that believe? For over a thousand years Christianity has had a near monopoly of mere volunteers, presidents, judges, and congressmen. The promises of faith have, not one time, produced the promised outcome.
I think it’s important to emphasize that this “body of Christ” is voluntarily submitting to “his will be done”, not their own. The religious right has fought every advance in human equality and fairness and does so even today. Holding on to the Bible as the final word in all things is an archaic disaster that has produced no peace, no higher standard of integrity, love, and in fact continues to lag behind the morality of mere men and women.
The theme of my blog is to gather information and report what I see. I too, was caught up in faith for most of my life, but when I stepped outside and took an honest look around, nothing added up to the ideal of that faith. None of it. Abrahamic religion may be the epitome of unintended consequences. What we have observed instead of increased love or honesty or integrity is deception. When I became an atheist, it was not because I read or watched and atheist material, it was because I watched my surroundings and outcomes compared to what is preached.
Only when I no longer “believed” were my eyes open and able to form my own thoughts. Only then could I love my neighbor without caveats. Only then was I able to say my own words and form my own opinions. I am not alone in this. Most deconverts have a similar experience. They cannot believe the things they used to say and think. I was quite embarrassed by it all for quite some time, as were others. I do appreciate your thoughtful comment. It is not often I get a valid response worth considering here. The position of faith before knowledge, just believing against all evidence has been a crippling psychological play for centuries. As I pointed out in a previous post, the church tells us that submitting to his will, casting off the natural man will help cure, but what it does is create a higher sense of self. It can’t in the end circumvent the evolution, but in fact only promotes ones self preservation by believing one thing that fools us into believing it promotes unity and acceptance. A keen play in the foibles of human psychology.
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https://jimoeba.wordpress.com/2018/11/20/grasping-at-straws-a-lecture-on-faith/
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Great comment, that, true!
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My threads a mess on the phone. My comment or his?
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Yours Jim…
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Thanks dear. How’s things? Hope you are awesome as can be
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Busy and very much alive, hah! I guess it’s old memories, but this time of year gives giving a whole new dimension – loving it, now that I get to make all the choices in how that is done.
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I still enjoy this time of year as well. All the best to you! Ttyl.
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Hey sorry it has taken me so long to respond. Hope your having a good Holliday season!
I have found your point of view, very interesting! I think that your observations on christanity today and in the past, are very accurate ones. About 12 years ago I left Christianity, for many of the reasons, that u have been talking about. After about 5 years I came back, but not because I believed anything that was being said. I had realized, after some reflection, that during my first period as a Christian I had gotten to know the church and what the church said about God and I had found them hypocritical, contradictory, blind, ineffective, and hatfule. The product did not match the promise, so I left. Like I said above I came back, however, the reason I came back was to honestly get to know God, apart from Christians. What I found is that God and Christians are not equivalents. What the majority of Christians preach and practice, is not even close to what is recorded in the bible. Here is an example, You pointed out that in the article u sent me, that a lot of Christians live under a fear based system, this is true. However it is not true that God set it up that way or that the bible teaches fear based obedience. When considering Christianity it is very important to factor into your consideration, the reality that when Christians say “his will be done”, what a lot of them are actually saying Is “my trudishions will be done”, or “what im comfortable with, will be done”.
I think Gandhi made a great point when he said, that he loved our christ but did not like our Christians. He pointed out vary accurately in that statement, that they are not the same thing.
Because of this, I do not think that the failings and bad understanding of Christians, is a valid reason to say that Christianity is wrong. Its kinda like saying that cars are bad because people crash and use them to rob banks. There’s more things to consider, before you can determine that and I think that the bigger picture indicates the truth of Christianity.
What I mean is this. you have often pointed out that Christianity has done terrible things and has not produced what was “promised”. Well the “bliss” that was promised was contingent apon becoming like Jesus. Which we historically, with some exception, have not even come close to. I would say that the problem is with the user. As evendence of this, I would point to the impact for good religions have had over the years. You will find that Christianity, despite people not doing it right. Has had a bigger impact for good in the world, than any other religion. It is also responsible for the biggest, positive, world culture changes, of any religion. Yes, bible influenced people have had slaves. however bible influenced people are responsible for it eventually being removed world wide. (No other groulp even got close)
There is something special about the way Christianity exelarated the positive growth towards good, in the world, as soon as it got here. Yes, this does not prove that its true. But it should indicate to us, that the reason for the rapid growth (the bible), should be considered carfaly and consideratly.
I have been enjoying your articles and am looking forward to reading more of your matirial. You make me think. That is good!
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Good reply. I have to take a deep breath here. You seem like your intentions are genuine, and I would imagine with or without the gospel that would not change as it did not for me. Faith however, is a powerful motive whether placed in truth or fantasies. While your explanation probably makes more sense than any I’ve heard, those are the type of conclusions you alone have drawn to keep your faith alive. I could not. It is the explanations that made me realize it was all a fabrication. From “god is love” to the god of the Bible, every jot and tittle requires explanation. The simplicity is far from simple.
My conclusions came from observing the state of things and what we learn from the Bible and the men of words, compared to what we see in reality. Not one single item aligns with the truth, unless of course you flip the entire thing.
Going back to the beginning, the errors, the men like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and of course, Jesus, the stories are fabrications conflicting each other, conflicting common sense, archeology, history, all of it. Did you know the Jews no longer believe the Noah and Moses stories? They are particularly embarrassed about the Moses story and realize it is fable. 2.4 million Jews in the exodus, a gathering for forty years the size of Houston Texas. They have identified the locations of the “camp” and there is nothing there to discover. Not even a pottery shard. Pharaohs had no cities of brick, and Egypt predates the arrival of Israel by hundreds of years. It’s not really even up for debate any longer but in the US where information is masterfully suppressed and avoided. There was no exodus. The tradition was enough to fool the supposed son of god? All knowing and all seeing eye of god in the flesh. Noah? We all know that the story couldn’t happen even with a modern freighter and the right people. Millions tons of food and a billion gallons of water, feeding and cleaning 24/7 8000 species, 30+ thousand animals over a year at sea? It didn’t happen. Paul’s gospel doesn’t match up with Jesus gospel, and on and on. It’s really quite amazing it has lasted this long, actually.
If Abraham sent your wife and son into the desert to die, went home and mutilated his genitals and tried to sacrifice his son before coming out of your trance, any man on earth would be locked away in a padded cell. With all due respect Dave, It’s insane.
I am not deflecting your comment. I consider it one of the best I’ve ever heard. There is so much more to the story that unconvinced me of any religion, let alone a god in yonder heavens eyeing everything we do and sending to hell anyone that doesn’t believe it.
Here’s my deal. I think a few years back you were on to something. The reason it didn’t make sense is because it doesn’t. It is hard to reconcile and accept being duped (I know) but that’s all it is. A play on the foibles of human psychology and force.
On a final note, you mention the Bible taking hold…what choice did anyone have? For a thousand years after Augustine approved forced conversions missionaries traveled the globe with a sword in hand. They left a bible everywhere and took the land. They came with a bible and left with land, and the natives were left with a bible and no land. Any non compliant genes were then killed, leaving only those that would go along with it. Every tradition and custom was eradicated, even in Western Europe and the US. Salem trials were a drop in the bucket compared to Spain, UK, France, and Germany. The Bible succeeded against all wisdom by powerful governments that carried it along side their hilt.
I know this is a little long. Sorry about that, but this response could easily be a book—Line by line Christianity requires some eloquent wordsmithing, and line by line it is not truth. In the end, if it was true, that’s just as bad (imo) because the god of the Bible was never Love, never justice, never mercy. If this life were a test it would be this—Do you have the courage and integrity to stand alone in the face of overwhelming pressure to say I don’t believe? I won’t comply? (Especially in the south) “Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it” 2.4 million Christians is not few. We are the few. I value my integrity and I could no longer embrace the excuses for god to fit in.
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Correct me if I’m wrong and please do not get offended. but I believe we have hit the point of the conversation where the conversation is over. You changed the subject and made the, nothing can chang my mind, statement. So if that is the case, that’s ok. I have enjoyed the conversation, your thoughts on different things makes me think and I enjoy talking with you. I also think you are genuine and I respect that. I look forward to more conversations on different things in the future.
I will admit that I have not done nearly enough research in to the exodus story to talk on any intelegent level. However I will be diving in to that and if you are ok with it, I would love to bounce what I find off you. Part of my learning system is to filter what I get through people with different points of view. That usaly helps keep my bias in check.
But anyway, have good one, I hope y’alls next game goes well!
Also I’m new to this blogging thing, in still putting things together, if you could check out my site and give me some pointer I would apreasheat it greatly.
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Thanks Dave. I just felt you addressed the question quite well. The entire thing is a run-on to more and more problems for me. It isn’t that I would never change my mind, I do quite often. I actually hold no strong belief in anything anymore. I weigh the evidence and really consider things for a while now. It’s just the climate we’re in. 70% of everything we hear and read nowadays is fake news. Statistically the truth is heard very little, and the lies penetrate deeply into the layers of social media. It’s an interesting time.
My goal here is not to dissuade you from faith, but to learn and reason. Thanks for the good conversation.
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A few more of my thoughts on this.
https://jimoeba.wordpress.com/2018/10/24/believing-we-dont-believe/
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