Being judged and sentenced by believers of god for a passive decision—a process of random inputs, neurons, billions of synapses interacting, perceptions weighed, likes and dislikes and cultural influence considered, simply for not believing a story—merely thoughts.
After having to process this information against my own choice, the ticket has popped out unbelief. What can I do to change that? What should be done to appease the masses…conform to become a natural man—gullible, trusting, yielding, herd instinctive, and fearful since birth? The desire to belong clouds judgement while the powerfully placed men of words and their yes-men apply pressure to consider the supernatural—by coercion.
A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised—1 Corinthians 2:14-15
Au contraire! A neat trick of religion and the biblicants is defining terms to suit their purpose. The natural man is actually the believing man as evidenced in the obvious. Everyone wants a belief. Since birth we are lied to, fearized, pressured, goaded—and though living in a society of liars we believe nearly everything that we are persuaded to believe. That, is the natural man. Either the believer is the enemy of god as the Bible says, or the Bible has decriminalized our natural tendencies and labeled the unnatural, independent-minded as the enemy. I am not the natural man. Having eyes that have opened through a struggle of librarial pursuit and observation, followed by the unpleasant task of unbelief, integrity will not undo this fact.
The strongest faith can’t protect us once we know the truth. Protection comes through conformity and abandoning honest virtue—integrity comes at a price. We now sit on the fringes of society writing anonymous blogs. Natural man? I’ll leave that to the churches where it’s modern version originated.
TheCommonAtheist 
And isn’t it like the Bible to condemn the right thinking paths, to denigrate anything that leads away from the con. This is class straw man arguing and the Bible is rampant with it.
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Virtually everything in it is a fingerpoint in the wrong direction. God is love is another great one-liner. It’s merely people being human when anything good happens, but we have been trained into self incrimination.
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God is love.
God is omnipotent.
God can stop wars, torture, politics; and
God doesn’t …
God knows everything that ever will or did happen
God endureth, ‘cos
God is eternal—backwards as well as forwards … etc etc
So if He created us as toys (diversion, sex-objects or whatever) just fourteen thousand million years ago … how the Hell did He keep Himself amused for all eternity before then?
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Good question. “Playing jacks and winks is getting old…let’s make an adult body…Father? What’s a body? I will show you Jesus. It will provide eons of fun for us to fuck with”.
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And so they did. “For ever and ever, until day and night shall come to an end …”
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JIM — you spelled ‘wanks’ wrong …
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Lol. I suppose gutter man.
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The natural man is someone who prioritizes wishful thinking over evidence and reason. We—atheists/agnostic—don’t have after-life candies and hell to bribe and intimidate people. And this alone will always give religion an advantage.
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Good point. The ideas are presented in kindness and persuasion, then it ratchets up notch after notch. In the end the whole world will be destroyed and everyone in hell by unbelief. It’s actually the safest time in our history to be alive. That’s due to less faith, not more. That’s just a statistical fact that flies against all persuasion of the faith in gods
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Funny, that the safest time in history for non-believers is actually close to the most dangerous time for world-ending nuclear war, and the least safe time ever for believers (and non-belivers) in global warming.
Maybe there is safety in religious belief–the world is about to end! Hallelujah!
Nah! Maybe not.
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All progress depends upon “deviants” who dare to color outside the lines. Cheers!
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Every breakthrough challenges the acceptable. Well said Franko. We’ll keep at it I suppose.
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I had one of those Mystic Seers as a kid, and an 8-Ball too. (Well, actually my father had them. He would keep trying until he got the answer he wanted, then walk happily away like it hadn’t given him the wrong answer 20 times in a row.) That sounds a lot like religion to me.
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Finding what you already want Buffet faith is proof (and 8 ball of course) that it is best we choose our own path without the pretense. We do it anyway
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Sounds like this should be a Billy Joel song.
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Ah, innocent man? Would be a good twist from a Jewish Protestant original Woodstocker.
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Actually thinking the line: the angy young man.
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I was told that I sound angry the other day. I said I’m not angry, it’s just difficult to address the audience of believers and point out their indiscriminate bias without “sounds” of any kind. I’ve done over 400 posts in about a two year block. Not everything is a masterpiece Dave. However, the rebuttal to my posts never have substance, just more feelings. No meat, hell, not even milk. While most people argue which belief system is best, I have so eloquently pointed out that the real problem goes a step beyond that. It is belief itself that generates tribalism and desilusión. He responded with an lol. Never any legitimate rebuttal, just more hand waving.
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Not *you* angry, the natural man as a subject. For some reason it made me think of Billy Joel, which is strange because I really never liked any of his music. I’ve been cutting grass, it’s 35 degrees, I think I might be a tad delusional.
And yes, the believer will accuse you of all sorts of terrible things if they think it’ll rescue their belief from the vice you not-angry man so superbly weild 😉
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Cutting grass, JZ?
Most cognoscenti smoke it …
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Younger JZ waves
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I love your blog and I love this debate. Organized religion is a complete fabrication designed specifically around the innate natural tendencies of man so that it all fits together like a puzzle. A superb storytelling masterpiece. (The greatest story ever told, if you will.) This is true however of all organized belief to the beginning of time. It is a method of control, both healthy and unhealthy. I defend it only because so many people are incapable of morality, self-confidence and focus without it. I think we’re getting there slowly, but until we can raise an entire new generation to be kind, ethical and proud humanists just for it’s own sake, we probably need religion just control the rioting.
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Happy you enjoyed it. It is quite telling how exactly opposite religion is, versus what it says it is. I would maybe disagree a little with your point. Take away the religion and people will maintain the same morality, only less inclined to hide their faults. Religion conditions one to be sneaky.
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You might be right. I agree humans have an innate sense of community and would tend to work for the good of many over the good of self if it meant preservation of the species. Even religious people do this today despite their religion telling them the contrary…science, birth control, vaccines, climate change…millions of religious people now believe in these things because it is for the good of our world. And religion grudgingly, gradually concedes.
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Religion continues over the centuries to dig in their heels at every social advancement. The ultimate moral compass of the Bible is stuck in an archaic and violent time. Any three person committee or mom and pop can do better.
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Liz:
(if I may be so bold?) The answer lies not in instilling the Fear Of God (FOG) into folks who will hopefully grow up to realise they’ve been sold a pup (diddled). The answer lies in instilling the very real value-judgements of The Trader.
Ethical traders do exist and their credo is (to the effect of) Free Trade.
‘Free’ meaning without force or coercion; and ‘trade’ means free (mutually acceptable) exchange.
The lubricant is ‘money’.
Money is not evil (why do the churches insist on collecting collections and donations?) (Pope’s gotta eat too, ya know~!).
Money facilitates trade, that’s all—by which I mean Real (genuine) money, something with intrinsic value (gold served us well in that office, once …).
Mutually agreed exchange of values, as in: my camera for your car, straight swap (if we both agree), or a handful of paper representing value (much easier to carry around).
We have only a semblance of Free Trade (FT) because the tax man would never agree unless getting his share, and as I said somewhere else the Brit (and many others) system is based on a triumvirate of Church/Crown/State.
Guess why the sold- pup survives and churches prosper? Armed force springs readily to mind—try saying “Allah ain’t really there!” in Mecca and you’d get stoned—legally, and without drugs.
In kiwiland here we have “Truth in advertising” laws, to the effect that if you make a claim for your product or service it must be demonstrably true (we allow for a wee bit of ‘puffery’, though) so how far would the religions get if they weren’t exempt from such challenges?
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Guys I get it. I agree with you that religion is feeding everyone a line of BS and then makings sure they eat it. I’m just saying that not everyone clings to religion for that reason.
If you suddenly found a way to prove without a doubt that God was not real, not everyone would drop out and suddenly be free of this great burden.
Many people cling to religion because it gives them purpose and meaning in their lives. It’s an easy way to understand your place in the universe ( whether right or wrong).
For those of us without religion, did you have to seek out that meaning on your own? Did you try religion first because it was handed to you in a box with a ribbon and a tag that said “I’m the answer”?
It’s really hard to find purpose within yourself, and many don’t want to try because someone has already handed them the answer and it’s easier to just jump on the boat that everyone else is in.
If we can find a way to give people purpose and meaning without religion (and market it as successfully as religion has so far), that’s where it’ll have a chance to really take root.
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I do not believe that we, the Non-Believers, have to prove that god does NOT exist, it is incumbent upon the believers to prove that it DOES exist, right? And why can’t you find meaning in life on your own? It occurs to me that religion does not necessarily provide an answer to that question. I raised my children without religion at all and they seemed to have found a sense of purpose at least within their own lives. Have faith in yourself and those you love; build the life you want to have here on Earth and you can leave it with a sense of fulfillment and purpose. And don’t usually recommend the term “meaning” as it seems incredibly nebulous to me. There’s an implication of something “other-worldly” that I have difficulty with since it leans towards perhaps something divine. Therefore I prefer “purpose” since I believe that is within our personal capabilities. You can bring purpose to your own life completely on your own without any divine assistance.
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I see it as a weakness in people if they are unable to find worth, purpose, meaning (whatever you want to call it) in themselves and must turn to some entity (of dubious existence) outside themselves to enjoy LIFE.
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LIZ:
People think that Naziism was politics. Actually, it was a religion. Try looking at it with unblinkered eyes, analytically, and see if I’m right~?
Many people use their religion as a way of bonding and forming social groups, social intercourse—instant belonging. Move to a totally new town, pop along to your local church and declare yourself as one of them and you are IN. Even more in if you actually do believe …
Being given ‘purpose and meaning’ saves an awesome amount of angst-filled thinking, no?
Let’s face it—most people are human sheep; follow the leader, go with the herd … and as the Japanese say “The nail that sticks up gets hammered down”. So which is easier for folks, too busy scratching a living to actually think? (Paraphrasing Thoreau—you know, the old “Mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation”—
“The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things.”
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Spot on! That is exactly the point I was going for. Well said.
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It’s a thought … but wotiff?
Wotiff people were taught (if absolutely nothing else but—) the Law Of Contradiction? And given discrimination enough to apply it when called for:
Contradictions do not—CAN not—exist; where you find an apparent contradiction then look to the premises because (at least) one of them is wrong.
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Once you become independent and know the truth, there’s no going back. The Bible seems to insist that belief and faith in God is a choice for some reason; you just need to try harder and take some blind steps. Take any signs that it might be God and run with it, while ignoring anything which suggests the opposite. God is love, leading his blind sheep astray, whilst never offering them concrete proof he exists.
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Thanks. And never producing the desired results either. How long do we give it to come to fruition? It’s not like there hasn’t been enough time.
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Well Jesus hasn’t came back in over 2000 years, that speaks for itself lol. Or maybe he has but is just blendin’ in, and living a quiet life?
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It is time, i.e., I believe there is a corpus of new archeological & Biblical data, such that we can now begin to summarily dismiss the claims of theists. We know from many well-regarded and highly respected sources that Jesus was, in short, an apocryphal, Jewish teacher that believed that the judgement day was to occur in his lifetime. There are many scholars – past and present – that will substantiate these claims. Some of the most unfortunate (for the side of the theists) passages of the NT that Jesus himself stated exposes this position thus. He believed the Law could not be abrogated under ANY circumstances, he simply debated the Pharisees on HOW it should be interpreted; no different from any other scholarly debate we would have today. We simply must stop allowing the mythologists to place us in the absurd position of defending the obvious and allowing them to sit in judgement of our beliefs which have been based on reason, research, trial & defense of our positions. They debate within a cloud of dogma; relentlessly redacted, edited, altered, erased, debated by so-called “scholars,” and ultimately entitled Truth! It is time for us to put them on the stand and have them justify and prove their thesis and allow us to debate them simply on the merits of their reason. There is nothing left for us to prove in this venue, it is incumbent upon the theists to prove their beliefs or stand aside and allow humanity to move forward unabated by superstitious distraction.
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Don’t forget religion in America would be the 12th largest economy in the world. As with any collapsing idea or venture, the warnings get louder and more intense. Money keeps this common knowledge from the pulpits. The expensé on Moses is pretty common knowledge outside the US as well, but it rarely surfaces.
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Yes I completely agree with you. I remember being Christian and feeling uncomfortable with the verses which strongly implied Jesus believed judgement was occurring in his lifetime. I mean, for him to say some of the things he said, it wouldn’t make sense that he believed the second coming was several thousand years later. Of course, Christians will jump through hoops and try to redefine what was meant by Jesus’s judgement, or the kingdom of heaven. Yes, theists should have to be able to prove their beliefs, but they won’t, since their standards of proof aren’t the same as mine or yours – that and their religion wouldn’t survive. For the most part, I see debating theists as a waste of time (well those from the major religions anyway).
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I can see why you might not want to debate them -the logic of it can drive me crazy sometimes.
But I still do it because I’m hopeful that one day questioning it enough will prevent the next generation from going through what I had to.
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If you can get people questioning, even though they might not admit it, you have done a good job. Sown a seed as it were… hehe.
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Make a choice? Please excuse any naughty words … but how the hell can anyone make a choice, when God already knows what that ‘choice’ will be? When He/She (jury still out on that one) knew millions of years ago which of the options would be taken?
This is where the whole ‘free will’ thing falls over, no? And without FW how can anyone ‘choose’ God? (Dammit—us dogs get easily confused—that’s why we chase our tails, it’s an object lesson for Christians and things but does anyone ever give us any credit?)(Only God does—ALL dogs go to Heaven~!)
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Well the Bible says we make a choice, but it also goes with what you said, so it therefore contradicts itself. The independent authors weren’t exactly concerned with continuity, even unchanging God changed his mind.
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Pity God … for alone in the universe, He is incapable of spontaneity.
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I need to try that thing about changing the meaning of words to work my way. But I just bought this nice new dictionary. Have a good PNW weekend. Oh, lordy, tomorrow is Sunday already. Wow.
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It is odd I think, in a curious way, how we who have had the ticket pop out, unbelief… Find it damn near impossible to even conceive of going back to belief. Once the veil has been lifted and one can see religion for the ginormous mindfucking con that it is, who the hell wants to be part of that?
One of the things that is hard to understand is how well the con actually works. The people you spoke of Jim, whoever they may be, doesn’t really matter, we have all run into the like. They are willing to argue, in their self assured obnoxious assuredness, that their belief is infallible. Unassailable, because they just “know” it to be true.
And we are over here, demanding they show us how it is true. It always boils down to the simple fact that they have no evidence. They have bluster, they have become the experts in the art of handwaving, and doing the x-ian crawdad anytime they get pushed into a corner. Unfortunately that is all they have. That, and a mind completely walled off from verfiable evidence, facts, and the reality that exists outside our windows.
Best we can hope for is that converts to unbelief slowly outpace the indoctrinated, maladjusted, minds of the great con. What we do on our blogs, and some surely more than others, is put their toes to the fire of reality itself. It is I believe our duty to do the best we can to enlighten any who might listen. Any who might be on the fence. Any who have doubts they are willing to face.
Say…isn’t that that Mystic Seer box the one they used in the Twilight Zone episode with William Shatner?
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It is the color version of the mystic seer twilight zone with Mr Shatner. Yep. Great episode too! Excellent comment Shell. Belief IS the natural man, but the religiosos want you to think it’s some type of earned virtue. It’s not at all. People will believe anything if they’re told. That’s the truth.
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Religion thrives on herd instinct. It can be difficult to go against what most people believe, but that doesn’t mean that what most people believe is true.
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Belief should be a temporary condition, not an end goal. It’s pretty bass ackwards when mere belief is lauded as a virtue, while fact is scoffed at by the believer that actually has nothing. The reality is humans believe nearly anything, and everything conceived by man is believed by someone, no matter how ridiculous it is. The natural man is the believer. That is obvious.
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I BELIEVE~!
I believe that there are no hard-and-fast facts, only beliefs—nothing in space for a rocket to push against ergo spacery is all a hopeless dream; and Man will never fly, you cannot send pictures through the ether, smokeless heat, machines can’t do sums much bigger/better/faster than a herf of men with slide-rules and endless coffee; a single bomb can not only destroy an entire city but can be delivered in ‘bombagram’ format? Naaaahhh …
Only God is eternal, reliable, the very rock on which we are all founded, and His name is …
(Oops. I don’t think I’ll go down that track) (I believe it might lead to a bit of angst, can’t have that on my grubby little conscience.)
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Angst is good among tonguey cheeks!!
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I love this line: “We now sit on the fringes of society writing anonymous blogs.” 🙂
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Thanks sir. Me too. Nice to have you here as well.
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The problem is not so much their belief in God but their belief in their God. It kind of makes it hard to even have a discussion with some people about their beliefs.
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I would submit belief is the problem. Belief is the number one cause of tribalism, division, political or religious it matters not. We always get two or three wrong choices of what to believe and it doesn’t seem to matter what it is. It is belief that cankers humanity to be against each other. A belief or faith that is problematic to human psychology. Everyone wants to take sides. The natural man is actually the believer, and Christianity has passed out trophy’s for doing what most people do anyway. Everyone wants a belief. It’s a fruitless endeavor.
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