To the True Churches

Finding your groove

Advertisements

Years ago when I was a True Believer © (AD, DDa, AWOB), I purchased a piece of property for farming. It was 20 acres below the high-line canal and approved for flood irrigation. It had a swale in the middle sloping down a bit to one side and had to be leveled. Three or four days on a tractor and a laser—or embarrassingly, maybe I could just hold up my hand and command it in the name of Jesus!

—It didn’t work.

After a few days of dozing I came to my senses—I didn’t believe hard enough…God was testing my faith.

It is said that all churches which are founded in error and imposter will come to a shameful end. But if Jesus Christ intends to say that he has established a society of followers who will not fall either into vice or error, these words are absolutely false, as there is in Christendom no church, no society, and no sect which is not full of errors and vices viruses [sic] especially the Roman church though it claims to be the purest and the holiest of all. It was born into error, and even now is so full of delusions which are contrary to the intentions, sentiments, and doctrine of its founder (Paul, P-peter) Because it has contrary to his intention, abolished the laws of the Jews of which he approved and which he came himself and said to fulfill them, not to destroy. It has fallen into the errors of idolatry of paganism, as seen by the idolatrous worship which is offered to its god of death (and child abuse)

And nobody’s is moving any mountains.

Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them—Mark 11:23

I didn’t doubt it, or I wouldn’t have done it. —Enter Explanations

Every Christian thinks the other are doing it wrong. In this I agree.

Author: jim-

One minute info blogs breaking the faith trap.

77 thoughts on “To the True Churches”

      1. Knowledge is a form of belief. If you don’t believe anything you do not know anything.

        Unless you want to drastically redefine basic language to support your worldview.

        Liked by 1 person

            1. Nope. I just don’t “believe” it yet, because it’s not going to end up being supernatural after all. Eventually we will find the evidence and the explanation for the quirks of the universe and god will become smaller yet again. Belief is merely a conviction of thought without substance—A pacifier. When the evidence is displayed and the research bares it out, I won’t need to “believe” a temporary state because then I’ll know. I’ll wait.

              Liked by 1 person

            2. “Nope. I just don’t “believe” it yet, because it’s not going to end up being supernatural after all. ”

              Sounds like you are, indeed, assuming there is nothing supernatural.

              “When the evidence is displayed and the research bares it out, I won’t need to “believe” a temporary state because then I’ll know. I’ll wait.”

              Either there is a way you should be living your life or there is not. Life doesn’t have a pause button so you can wait until you get all the evidence you want.

              Like

            3. Says who? I am quite content not defending nonsense. Waiting is fine
              Have you ever read The Age of Reason by tho as Paine or Testament, by Messlier? You would serve your thinking cap well by acknowledging thine obvious.

              Liked by 1 person

            4. “Says who?”

              Ok so you think there is a pause button for life?

              Does Thomas Paine or Measlier tell me were I can locate that button?

              I find it interesting that you keep saying all these topics that have challenged the wisest people in history is all really simple and obvious. Anyone who dares disagree with you is just full of nonsense. I suspect your confidence exceeds your competence. Are you wearing the juice?

              Like

            5. What the hell? Can you muddle through 3000 years of philosophy and explanations that are a complete quagmire with no results, or simply back up and take a look around? Religion for the last 500 years is more over engineered than an IBM model F keyboard. The simplicity is lost in the warehouse along with the ark of the covenant. The key to understanding the mysteries is unbelief. Only an outsider can view through an unbiased lens. Islam is no better. It creates a facade and the real life is different than the surface. Although the current Islam leaks out a bit more on the violence end.

              Liked by 1 person

            6. The dunning Kruger applies more to religion than any other thought process. Look at the numbers Joe. Pretty obvious someone believing what everyone else is believing is certainly not atheistic. Overconfidence and pride by belief without evidence is stubbornness to a core

              Like

            7. The dunning Kruger applies more to religion than any other thought process. Look at the numbers Joe. Pretty obvious someone believing what everyone else is believing is certainly not atheistic. I think you should examine your own hormones and human flaws of neurology regarding belief before we can seriously dialogue. If your using your own thoughts, why are they the same as every other religious blog I interact with? All based on a presupposed conclusion. Do you find any consensus outside belief? I do.

              Liked by 1 person

            8. Jim your post is just full of confident assertions.

              You are saying my blog is the same as every other religious blog you interact with? Like which blog?

              Jim:
              “Do you find any consensus outside belief? I do.”

              You keep using “belief” in the sense of a “religious beliefs” right? Do you think there is a consensus on the basis of morality outside of religious believers? You keep saying it is all obvious, and simple but I think perhaps you should learn a bit more about it and then you might realize its not as simple as you thought.

              Like

            9. I simply believe nothing and write about what I see. I’ve heard all the excuses. God is in the hormones and neurons. This is not a belief, but a reproducible phenomenon, even morality is dependent on the stable neuron. Countless studies show this. It’s not as complicated as you’d like. By belief (yes, religious beliefs) we think we’re immune to our neurons and hormones. Even a well placed lie can convert and even kill by eliciting hormonal responses. Jonathan Edwards ring a bell?

              Liked by 1 person

            10. “I simply believe nothing and write about what I see. I’ve heard all the excuses. God is in the hormones and neurons. This is not a belief, but a reproducible phenomenon, even morality is dependent on the stable neuron. Countless studies show this. It’s not as complicated as you’d like.”

              Ah yes Jim its all simple. All these guys who are arguing about meta-ethics just need to understand “morality is dependent on the stable neuron” and then all the questions would be answered.

              “By belief (yes, religious beliefs) we think we’re immune to our neurons and hormones.”

              I have only a vague idea of what you are trying to say here. But it does seem to me you are the one who only posts about religious people having biases. In my last post I explicitly admit I can be subject to biases as well . I have also written posts where I think Christian arguments do not work so well. So do you still maintain that my religious belief makes me believe I am “immune to neurons and hormones.”

              When was the last time you admitted you may have been influenced by bias in your current views. Note I am not asking you to tell us about how you were so befuddled and confused, in the bad old days, when you were a Christian. How about a post of the thousands you have about how Christians are so confused and biased where you suggest you yourself might not be immune. Or how about a post where you point out an argument used for atheism is weak? Does that ever happen?

              Or in your view does it just so happen that all the good reasons support the conclusions you draw and all the arguments in support of your conclusions are good arguments. There is never any reason to doubt atheism or the arguments in favor of it.

              I will say there are good reasons to doubt Christianity. For example the problem of evil, hiddeness of God, and even some contradictions in the bible etc. If you think there is only good reason to hold your own views on a topic so disputed throughout time by great intellectuals and no good reasons to support the other side then you may be a bit biased. I’m just saying maybe.

              Like

            11. I would like to ask you if you could possibly identify the problems with the Mormons or jehovahs witnesses? They on the other hand can see the errancy if your faith, but believe theirs is the one true church. Why? Because you don’t voluntarily apply belief in their faith which leads to excuses. Only an outsider can truly see the ridiculousness of belief. You see theirs, they see yours, I see them all.

              Liked by 1 person

            12. That is funny. Faith is the ultimate display of stubborn pride, and I’m overconfident? “Hey guys” I’m starting a blog to convince people about Jesus and faith! That’s overconfidence. Paul played on the pride and pluralistic ignorance. Nobody want to be left out.

              Liked by 1 person

            13. “That is funny. Faith is the ultimate display of stubborn pride, and I’m overconfident? “Hey guys” I’m starting a blog to convince people about Jesus and faith! That’s overconfidence.”

              I see anyone who starts a blog that attempts to convince people something different than what you believe must be foolishly over-confident.

              Jim
              Why are you so negative about Christianity? I mean Christ’s main teaching was that we love each other. Why of all people choose that guy to post endless blogs against? Sometimes your posts seem so cynical.

              If you think it is Christians that are the problem and not Christ then build them up and help them be better.

              Liked by 1 person

            14. Christianity is the first to claim to be the last word. It is belief that divides, causes tribalism and hatred against people who are different. . Christians who submit their will (not my will, but thine be done) take the teachings and try to force them on everyone else. The things they say and fight for hurts people and divides. When one no longer believes they start having their own thoughts, instead of the interpretations and protestations and pattotings of the preachers, and those thoughts become more tolerant and accepting than Christianity. Being the last word has given them the right to shun by the will of god (the writers) and the unwillingness to work with others is inbred in smug self righteousness. I’m not negative at all. Questioning faith makes people defensive and challenges their right to hope. I know that sounds mean to you, but reality demands it. Mere men become kinder when they have full responsibility for their actions.
              I’m really hoping they find some archeological evidence or something that Christianity is legitimate and not the complete fraud that it is. Here’s why—It would be the end if faith. Not the end of religion, but the end of belief. Belief (convictions of thought without substance) make people do and say things to others that are not them. Makes them less tolerant, makes them think they have the only right way to live. I wish it would go away. It’s no more useful than a pacifier to a spoiled 3 year old whose parents protect him from his bad behavior.
              That being said, I do appreciate your dialog and I also think that most people try to be good people. But religion has been dead weight far too long. They have resisted measures of equality and frankly, higher moral standards as we move along. I know the intensions of most Christians are honorable, but the outcome of religion thwarts human potential.

              Liked by 1 person

            15. I also appreciate dialogue with you when we have it. But I hope you agree you are making many claims about Christianity. But they do not reflect Christ of the Gospels.

              “Christianity is the first to claim to be the last word.”

              Im not sure what you mean by this. Do you think other religions were not attempting to give ultimate answers?

              “It is belief that divides, causes tribalism and hatred against people who are different. . Christians who submit their will (not my will, but thine be done) take the teachings and try to force them on everyone else.”

              Christ was a uniter of divided people. gentile and jew women and men etc. He taught women, he used samaritans as examples of good people.

              Of course there were times when Christians spread their beliefs through force – just like every group including non-religious groups have done in history. That is politics and governement. Forcing people to your own standards. But the scripture describes Jesus as spreading the faith through reason. Not violence. In fact Jesus explicitly rejects the use of violence.

              “The things they say and fight for hurts people and divides. When one no longer believes they start having their own thoughts, instead of the interpretations and protestations and pattotings of the preachers, and those thoughts become more tolerant and accepting than Christianity.”
              Joe:
              Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, the reign of Terror. Look rather than just making assertions why don’t you post about some of these people or events. Learn history and then try to develop and informed opinion on the matter.

              The Culutures of the world that have a lengthy Christian history: are they really so much worse than everywhere else? Tell me why you think so. If you don’t then what basis do you have to say the Christian belief system is worse than any others made by man. ( I am assuming it is made by man to suit your view)

              Jim
              “Being the last word has given them the right to shun by the will of god (the writers) and the unwillingness to work with others is inbred in smug self righteousness.”

              Compared to whom? The atheists I list above? Hindus? That is the thing you are not grounding your views in reality. You have this notion of how people will act and say Christianity falls short and want to type thousands of words condemning it. But in reality it has done very well compared to other ways of thinking that people tried to follow *in reality*.

              “I’m not negative at all. Questioning faith makes people defensive and challenges their right to hope. I know that sounds mean to you, but reality demands it.”

              Your negativity is more a matter of your belief that there is not right or wrong to live other than what we make up. And your attacks often seem to involve juvenile form of bullying. Making fun of Christians rather than simply addressing their views. Ridiculing others makes divides it doesn’t unite. I will say I really try not to ridicule others even though I know that it plays on biases and can be more persuasive.

              “Mere men become kinder when they have full responsibility for their actions.”

              You often assert this but you never provide any evidence. Would scientific studies that show that when people adopt views that many atheists accept like no free will etc lead to less moral behavior convince you? Or would you just dance around the science? I mean its ok if you say I know atheism makes us less kind but it is true therefore I believe it. But you keep asserting Christianity makes us worse. But the only basis you gave was something about porn – and I think i showed that basis was false or at least not reliable.

              “I’m really hoping they find some archeological evidence or something that Christianity is legitimate and not the complete fraud that it is. Here’s why—It would be the end if faith. Not the end of religion, but the end of belief. Belief (convictions of thought without substance)”

              That is a twisted understanding of the word belief. Knowledge is a form of belief. If you say I know I am sitting in a chair then you *must* believe you are sitting in a chair. If you do not believe you are sitting in a chair it is impossible for you to know you are sitting in a chair. Please just think this through. Ask yourself if you know certain things. Then ask yourself if you believe those things. Its not a religion or non-religion thing either. Lots of atheists recognize this.

              What sort of archeology are you thinking that you will find?

              “make people do and say things to others that are not them. Makes them less tolerant, makes them think they have the only right way to live. I wish it would go away. It’s no more useful than a pacifier to a spoiled 3 year old whose parents protect him from his bad behavior.”

              Well again lets see the proof. England is locking people up for sitting with a sign that says “Jesus Gives Peace, Jesus is Alive, Stop Immorality, Stop Homosexuality, Stop Lesbianism, Jesus is Lord”

              Is this tolerance? Can someone express their views? Or whatever the politburo decides is “hateful” is punishable by imprisonment? And society at large can start locking people up for expressing minority views.

              “That being said, I do appreciate your dialog and I also think that most people try to be good people. But religion has been dead weight far too long.”

              Again the Christian Cultures tend to be the most tolerant.

              “They have resisted measures of equality and frankly, higher moral standards as we move along.”

              Higher moral standards? Do you mean standards that better accord with objective reality? See this is where you contradict yourself. You say there is not true morality its just whatever people decide but then you talk as if some people have a higher morality. It seems you are no better than those smug Christians. Except they do not contradict themselves.

              “I know the intensions of most Christians are honorable, but the outcome of religion thwarts human potential.”

              Compared to what?

              Like

            16. I’m not going to address all of this. “Christianity is the first to claim to be the last word.” One true god? If any one adds or takes away he is cursed? What we have to work with from “god” is a complete contradiction from Jesus, Paul from the very beginning, and we’re supposed to accept that? Cmon man, my mind won’t go there! Paul claiming to know the unknowable and played on the pride of the Greeks in way of “authority” that they couldn’t resist. They all pretended to know too. It never stopped its circuitous rounds since, but it’s the last word. The alpha and omega of contradictions.
              I do love the secret sayings of jesus in the gospel of Thomas v2. “1) “The one who seeks should not cease seeking until he finds.
              (2) And when he finds, he will be dismayed” Dismayed is the perfect word here. Shaking your head and squinting at the words. There are no mysteries. That is the secret.

              Liked by 1 person

            17. Jim:
              “I’m not going to address all of this.”

              That’s fine, but I am actually interested in knowing what you think about all the questions I asked.

              Jim:
              “Christianity is the first to claim to be the last word.” One true god?”
              Joe:
              Judaism said this before there were Christians.

              Jim:
              “If any one adds or takes away he is cursed? What we have to work with from “god” is a complete contradiction from Jesus, Paul from the very beginning, and we’re supposed to accept that? Cmon man, my mind won’t go there!”
              Joe:
              I’m really not sure what you are referring too. If you are referring to scripture then perhaps quote it.

              Jim:
              “Paul claiming to know the unknowable and played on the pride of the Greeks in way of “authority” that they couldn’t resist.”

              Joe:
              Was it the unknown god or the unknowable god? Do you see why that is different. Perhaps what is unknown to the Greeks was known to someone else – like Paul.

              But of course there will be some things we know and some we don’t about all sorts of things. And some things may be unknowable. Do you agree with that?

              “They all pretended to know too. It never stopped its circuitous rounds since, but it’s the last word. The alpha and omega of contradictions.”

              Below you say there are no mysteries. So it would seem you are the one saying we all know. But now you are saying they only pretend to know. I am not sure I understand your point and it seems you are contradicting yourself.

              It seems to me there are some contradictions in the bible and therefore it does have errors. But I am not sure what set of 73 books contains no errors. And the fact that a collection of books may have a few errors that does not mean it can’t contain truth.

              Jim:
              “I do love the secret sayings of jesus in the gospel of Thomas v2. “1) “The one who seeks should not cease seeking until he finds.
              (2) And when he finds, he will be dismayed” Dismayed is the perfect word here. Shaking your head and squinting at the words. There are no mysteries. That is the secret.”

              More assertions. No reasons to believe they are true. Why do you think everyone knows everything and there are no mysteries? Or do you mean simply that Christianity is not true and Atheism is true.

              You think your atheism is a secret? If everyone knows everything and there are no mysteries then it is hard to see how anything would be a secret. Do you think no one thought the way you do until you came around? These positions have been argued over and considered for about as long as we have written records. I have never read any of your posts and thought I was being let in on a secret. It may have seemed new or novel to you depending on your culture but lots of people have thought and think in similar ways to you. Other people understand your position and find problems with it.

              I have offered some of the problems but you never address them. You just keep reasserting your conclusions.

              Like

            18. I guess you’ve made my points for me. I don’t follow atheism nor have I read but part of one book I am currently in. It’s interesting that my observations align with the likes of Jean Messlier, Mark Twain, and even some of the modern atheists who publish in this time period. Unbelief is clear as day. On the other hand Joe, you aren’t the least bit interested in what I have to say about those observations. Mixing philosophy and religious experts you have officially come to their consensus. Nothing you’ve said so far is original or even your own thoughts. You believe firstly, then shoehorn everything into that belief. Your failure to connect the dots on even the simplest of the statements I have made is evidence of your presuppositions.
              What about your statements is not the party line? You have officially been hijacked.

              Liked by 1 person

            19. “I guess you’ve made my points for me. I don’t follow atheism nor have I read but part of one book I am currently in. It’s interesting that my observations align with the likes of Jean Messlier, Mark Twain, and even some of the modern atheists who publish in this time period. ”

              Do they agree with you that morality is nothing more than the consensus of the community? Did you ever read Adventures of Huckleberry Finn?

              “Unbelief is clear as day.”

              Ah I see. Again, do you see why I am suggesting you might be a bit over confident?

              “Mixing philosophy and religious experts you have officially come to their consensus. Nothing you’ve said so far is original or even your own thoughts. You believe firstly, then shoehorn everything into that belief. Your failure to connect the dots on even the simplest of the statements I have made is evidence of your presuppositions.
              What about your statements is not the party line? You have officially been hijacked.”

              What party line is that?

              Why don’t you try to connect your own dots? That is present your views as a valid argument instead of making a bunch of assertions and then pretending you gave reasons for those assertions. I think you are rejecting Christianity based on non-sequiturs. I ask you why you think one belief relates to another and you get upset. Why does watching monkeys get upset because one did not get a grape mean there is no such thing as morality?
              Why does the fact that the Earth existed for X number of years mean there is no God?

              If you try to put these premises in the form of an argument you will see the connection to the conclusions is far from “obvious.”

              You have said before that I just repeat the views of other apologists. But when I ask for a link to the blog you never give one. Why not?

              Like

            20. I think you are rejecting Christianity based on non-sequiturs.
              Here is a synopsis of my non sequiturs.
              Abraham, over 100 years old has a prompting to kill his son to please god (acceptable to him for the times, he was going to do it for god sake) . He has second thoughts but then settles for genital mutilation as a covenant that he can have seed as numerous as the stars (which never happened). He was to have the land (which never happened). They were to bless the whole earth ( never happened) but instead they won a few dirty battles with weak opponents and have been saved by Americans as of late to occupy a land they have now stolen. (Remember, propped up by government?).
              #2. Moses. A forty year exile from Egypt from an unknown pharaoh, they spend 40 years at kadesh barnea. 2.4 million people (the size of Houston Texas) A million graves or more, but not even a pottery shard of evidence. It never happened. Even the Jews, quite embarrassed have relegated it to a myth. But even the son of god, god in the flesh (the writers) quotes the Moses tale. He should’ve known better.
              #3. Noah. 8000+ species on a boat for over a year with 8 attendees. Not even our largest freighters could accommodate, and hold enough food and water. Feeding 24/7 and all that poo? But Jesus doesn’t even get the idea. It never happened.
              #4. Jesus himself and the Synoptics are retrowrits and poorly done, backpeddling jnto the Old Testament which is backpeddled to meet the new with bogus prophecy that are oft quoted that have nothing to do with the Jesus figure. His hometown btw, is not even mentioned although every other town in Judea is well documented by Rome. The entire thing is a fable.
              #5 Pauline/Hellenistic corruption and adaptations of paganism and superstition abound. Medical errors, demons, demonic possession, speaking in tongues, celebrating a bloody history of burnt offerings and animal sacrifice culminated with a celebration of human sacrifice. Evil, vile, all to a god figure that fails his test of omnipotence. Not only could he not be moral and cause pain and death, changing his mind and drowning his children, but he could not possibly have the need for any of the barbaric ritual from a violent time of a ergot poisoned (or ego dreamer) visionary.
              The non-realty religion lives in handwaves this and continues to peddle “god is love” but we have yet to see it. Not one single item of your faith has truth or has produced the promised results. Only waiting and misery. None of it.
              Obviously I could write a book, but why bother. Christians already publish over a million cataloged titles a year trying to weasel word another convert or two by leaving out what’s under the hood.
              We are doomed to accept Augustine’s authorization of forced conversions and a thousand years of swordplay. Anyone that rebelled was killed and the gene pool is left with compliant cowards who absolutely are glued to the herd.
              We could wade our way out of it but religion has to go. It’s too much dead weight for the handful of innovators to carry. The whole religion is spectral evidence and superstition. That’s a lot of non sequitur! But wait! There’s much much more.

              Liked by 1 person

            21. Jim
              Thanks for at least offering some substance. I can’t really address the old testament stuff because I never really looked into it. As an adult I never thought to take the Noah story literally. That is not to say it couldn’t be important for you. Clearly everyone has their own view of what is important. Bart Ehrman says he was troubled because the mustard seed was not the smallest seed. I am not saying there is anything illogical about being concerned about some of this stuff. Its just not something that was a big deal for me.

              As for the Jesus being a fable I think you are just spreading misinformation. And then you seem to just go off the rails with this “Medical errors, demons, demonic possession, speaking in tongues, celebrating a bloody history of burnt offerings and animal sacrifice culminated with a celebration of human sacrifice. Evil, vile, all to a god figure that fails his test of omnipotence.”

              Do you see how you are twisting things?

              “We are doomed to accept Augustine’s authorization of forced conversions and a thousand years of swordplay. Anyone that rebelled was killed and the gene pool is left with compliant cowards who absolutely are glued to the herd.”

              Are on about that again? Do you know how long Augustine lived? Its so strange that you keep reaching back dozens of centuries to complain about a relatively small number of deaths. Should you not be more concerned with the anti-christians of more recent times like Stalin Mao Pol Pot Hitler and the leaders of NK and Cuba who did all their killing in the last century? Its interesting that you seem blind to that.

              What do you think Christianity is preventing people from doing?

              Like

            22. Small number of deaths? The conversion of Europe and Latin America is a small number? Along with the exodus (which is the foundation of Judaism, therefore Christianity) the conversions of Europe and Latin America was outright genocide. Salem gets a lot of airtime, but was nothing compared to Spain, Scotland, England, and France. The history of your blessed faith you never knew is worth a look. No doubt the only difference between Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, and the missionary brutality of Europe is they didn’t have the modern weapons. Many historian agree it would have been much worse, even rivaling the genocide of the 20th century. There were just way less people back then to kill and no mass of modern weaponry.

              Like

            23. “Small number of deaths? The conversion of Europe and Latin America is a small number? ”

              Jim
              You blaming Augustine for all the deaths that happened in South America just shows how desperate you are to blame Christianity for all the evils of the world.

              I would encourage you to read about the conquest of South America. Read some actual history books on it – not just screeds by other anti-religious bloggers. I think you will learn the views you often hear repeated by them are far from the whole story.

              Of course the spread of disease was horrible and caused many of the more indigenous people to die. Do you blame the diseases on Christianity?

              As far as modern weaponry – ok but that is true of non-christians in Ancient times as well. Genghis khan, Alexander the Great, Vikings, Muslim invasions, Roman invasions etc etc.

              What is so disturbing about the anti-christian leaders of the last century is that they basically turned the clock back on Christian morality that had been built up over centuries. And it happened fast with horrible consequences.

              Again you are not naming the culture that was so great in history. You are just comparing Christianity to some ideal society of your daydream. Of course that is what Stalin, Mao and Hitler thought. They had what they thought would be ideal systems based on science and that didn’t require any traditional views.

              Like

            24. “Its so strange that you keep reaching back dozens of centuries to complain about a relatively small number of deaths.”

              Are you serious? Do you know nothing at all about the history of Christianity? How about the near genocide committed by the Europeans against the Native Americans in South, Central and North America, if you want a more recent example of what Christianity has done? Or if that’s still ancient history for you, how about the millions of Africans who were kidnapped, enslaved, worked to death, murdered and raped with the open approval of so-called “ministers of god” throughout the US? What about the atrocities committed by the British against the people of India, all couched under the guise of “civilizing the heathens” and bringing the christian god to them? Or the colonialism of the European powers throughout Africa, the South Pacific and Asia where these Christians looted, raped, pillaged, enslaved and murdered for their own gain under the umbrella of Christianity?

              Or if you want a modern example, just start looking at what is going on right now with extremists vandalizing, assaulting and even murdering those who don’t agree with them while being egged on by extremist ministers and preachers, all trying to excuse their abuse and criminal activity because it’s being done “for god”.

              And please, don’t start in with lines like “Should you not be more concerned with the anti-christians of more recent times like Stalin Mao Pol Pot Hitler and the leaders of NK and Cuba who did all their killing in the last century?” It simply makes you sound like a little boy who got caught doing something naughty and immediately points at his friend and says “Yeah, but Tommy did it too!” That isn’t an argument, it’s just another attempt at misdirection to try to avoid responsibility. That’s like Ted Bundy standing up in court and saying “Yeah, but Ed Gein did it too!”

              Liked by 2 people

            25. In asking that Christian culture be compared to other cultures is not the same as an individual saying someone else did something bad too. It is basing our assessments in reality as opposed to comparing Christianity to some notion we have in our head. No one claims that any moral code made every single person perfect. But some like those of the anti-Christian governments were much worse than the Christian ones. You are the one saying don’t look at that just look at what happened centuries ago.

              You seem to want to blame all the bad actions of Europe on Christianity. As though everyone in Europe would be so much better behaved if they stuck with the pagan gods that the barbarians worshipped before Christianity. Or perhaps you think the romans and ancient Greeks were never racist or cruel? You fail to consider the problematic moral beliefs Christianity inherited from the cultures they cane into. The great cultures of tolerance, learning, and compassion the west is now did not happen overnight.

              With most of the atrocities you mention it is at least a fair question to ask if the atrocities were done because they were Christian or despite being Christian. You did have Christian responses to these atrocities by clergy which lead to the development of our notions of human rights.

              You only want to look at history one way. You want to ignore the anti Christian leaders and paint any done wrong by a Christian culture as being because it is Christian. Do you think all the people who fought in the civil war to free the slaves were atheists? Do you think MLK was atheist or that his religion played no role in making him who he was?

              I have been working on a post on Christianity and slavery. It may have some facts that surprise you.

              Like

            26. “You are the one saying don’t look at that just look at what happened centuries ago.”

              I never said any such thing. You discounted the atrocities committed in the name of religion by claiming that it amounted to a “few deaths” many years ago. I pointed out that it wasn’t a “few”, it was millions, and it wasn’t just many years ago, but took place throughout history and is happening right now. Right Now. Right now christian ministers are standing in the pulpit and preaching that gays should be executed. Right now Hindus are murdering Muslims, Muslims are murdering Hindus, Buddhists are murdering Muslims. We have extremists running down people in the streets. We had the slaughter at the Sikh temple just a few miles from where I live not that long ago. We have transgender people being murdered, gay businesses being vandalized, and all being done in the name of god. And it’s being done right now. If you’re trying to claim that the atrocities committed in the guise of religious belief are a thing of the past, you’re wrong.

              “But some like those of the anti-Christian governments were much worse than the Christian ones.”

              There you go again, trying to divert attention away from the atrocities committed in the name of religion by pointing fingers and going “but they did it too!” Sorry, that argument doesn’t work.

              ” Or perhaps you think the romans and ancient Greeks were never racist or cruel? ”

              Never said any such thing. In fact, my comments apply to all religions. All of them have been twisted to make excuses for the worst kinds of behavior imaginable. I used christianity as an example because that was the topic being currently discussed.

              What I see you trying to do is trying very hard to defend the indefensible. You point at Martin Luther King and the abolitionists and say “See? They were good people and they were religious”. Yes, they were. But do the actions of a few good people make up for the pain and suffering caused by thousands of years of abuse? When do we reach the point where enough is enough and come to the realization that this just isn’t working? That this just isn’t right?

              Religion, as a belief in a supreme being, is not responsible because religion is a concept, an idea, and as such is neither good nor evil. But it can, and is used almost universally as a way of supporting and spreading prejudice and violence, and is routinely perverted to serve the greed of human beings.

              Let me put it this way. A person who aids another in the commission of a crime is considered to be as guilty of that crime as the person who actually commits it. As an example, we have executed people in this country for doing nothing more than driving the car that was used by the actual murderer in the commission of a crime. They didn’t pull the trigger, didn’t plan the crime, did absolutely nothing. In some cases they didn’t even know what the murderer actually did until after the fact. But they were still implicated in the crime because without their cooperation the crime couldn’t have been committed.

              Religion didn’t pull the trigger, but it sure as hell drove the getaway car.

              Let me add something here to explain, well, me.

              Despite what I’ve written here and at Ben’s blog, I’m not actually an atheist. I defend atheism and atheists, yes. I support them whole heartedly. From every logical and scientific point of view, they are right; there is no evidence that any kind of supernatural anything is going on in this universe. None. And to be honest, depending on what day of the week it is, the phase of the moon, where we are the solar cycle and how much sleep I got, I certainly lean more towards disbelief than belief. But, well, that’s as far as I will go with that. My beliefs, or lack of them, are my concern. My issue is with organized religions because they always, always, no matter how well meaning they might be when they are started, end up being twisted and perverted.

              I studied history, philosophy, theology and science far, far too long, and one of the first things I learned was that the only thing I could really depend on was science. And then only if I can see the actual data. Some people say I was a born cynic and I will plead guilty to that. And I’ve only become more so as I’ve aged. In high school I learned that the history I learned in grade school was largely complete BS. In college I learned that most of the history I learned in high school was BS. Well, you get the idea. Philosophy was even worse; circular reasoning, invalid logic, incomprehensible word salad, some of it. Theology… What I learned was that any religion is a ticking time bomb because all religions are an attempt to manipulate people, to indoctrinate them into a particular belief system, using techniques that, frankly, would be considered unethical in any other context outside of religion. And once a religion becomes established, it will always, always eventually be used for the political, monetary or sexual benefit of the hierarchy.

              Joe, you seem like a nice guy. Certainly you’re well read and intelligent, but there doesn’t seem to be much point in continuing this. You’re going to continue to misread or misinterpret what I write, just as I am probably doing the same thing with some of the things you’re saying. We’re never going to agree here and continued discussions are going to be fruitless.

              Liked by 1 person

            27. Joe:
              “But some like those of the anti-Christian governments were much worse than the Christian ones.”

              Grouch:
              “There you go again, trying to divert attention away from the atrocities committed in the name of religion by pointing fingers and going “but they did it too!” Sorry, that argument doesn’t work.”

              That is not the argument. The argument is that Christianity tends to improve cultures more than other religions and certainly more than anti-religious regimes.

              Its not the case that we would expect all the woes of society to disappear the day a Chrisitian or Anti-christian takes office. But we can look and see if they tend to get better or worse. And it is pretty clear that societies improve with Christianity. And they went horribly wrong really fast when political leaders took an Anti-christian view.

              You are the one diverting and trying not to address these facts of the reign of terror, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, North Korea etc etc.

              Instead you just want to be hypercritical of christianity and compare it to some ideal in your head as opposed to reality and cultures that have existed in reality. Its also why you seem to want to blame Augustine for every death that happened in South America even though he did not even know South America existed.

              I agree that our discussion may not have much value if we just nit pick. That is why I ask you to look at a bit of a larger picture. Western society is where Christianity has had the most influence. If you think western values are horrible compared to Islamic, or anti-christian views such as the ones I mention ok. But if you recognize that our values of tolerance and equality and individual rights are important and good then you will have a hard time separating those trees from our Christian roots – if you really understand the history of ideas.

              Like

            28. Please, Joe, did you even read what I wrote? I never blamed Agustine for what happened in South America. In fact, I’ve never mentioned Augustine at all.

              No, you aren’t going to draw me into this again. You obviously aren’t even reading what I wrote so there’s no point in this at all.

              Liked by 2 people

            29. “Please, Joe, did you even read what I wrote? I never blamed Agustine for what happened in South America. In fact, I’ve never mentioned Augustine at all.”

              Jim mentioned Augustine and we talked about a situation where he seems to have advocated violence against the Donatist sect. I said that involved relatively few deaths (compared to say Stalin or Mao) and happened several centuries ago. And you quoted me responding to him talking about Augustine by saying something like: you think there were few deaths in south america?

              So perhaps you did not read what I was responding to – although I likely quoted it.

              Yes I read what you wrote. You are trying to simplify and twist a rather complicated history of the world to blame Christianity as much as possible for every woe of the world. Of course Christians were not perfect but moralizing about how people acted centuries ago is a bit different than how people were acting in the 1950s.

              My point in these conversations is always pretty much the same. Christian societies are not perfect. And
              1)Christian societies have done many bad things – no doubt.
              2)But Christian societies have learned from their mistakes (yes it has been slow) because the direction of Christ’s Command to love each other regardless of race of gender or even religion is the correct moral direction. And Christians believe morality is real and important. It is not just something we made up.

              3) Christian societies are not perfect but when compared to alternative societies they seem better. Perhaps especially when they are compared to anti-christian societies they are much better.

              4) Its the same idealism talk combined with contempt of Christianity and traditional morality that lead to the disastrous regimes of the past. Reign of terror, Soviet Union, Hitler, etc.

              These are my points and I think all them have historical support. But obviously that covers huge amounts of history and I am open to hearing arguments or historical evidence for different views.

              Like

            30. Forced conversion was carried around the globe a thousand years. Authorized by the church. The effect of scripture authorizing “compel them to come” to the feast led to endless cruelties everywhere Christians planted their flag. Just lucky they didn’t have modern weaponry.

              Liked by 1 person

            31. Jim such things certainly happened in the past. Just like forced de-conversions happened under atheist and non-christian regimes. Do you know the cause of the Donatist controversy?

              But Christian cultures by and large stopped doing that, where as Atheist and other cultures continue to force people to adopt their views.

              Again you are acting as though trying to force certain beliefs on people is something uniquely Christian when it obviously is not. The anti-christian regimes of the last century were a horrible step in the wrong direction of freedom of belief and expression. Even today as Europe leaves behind Christianity it is start to revert to forced beliefs and restrictions on expression.

              People in Europe are literally being arrested for expressing their beliefs – and it is not Christians who are pushing this agenda.

              Like

            32. Aah but christians have the ultimate morality and are supposed to know better! That’s the hypocrisy of the entire defense. Of course we would expect godless atheists to plunder the earth, but not us!! Lol. They had unlicensed authority from god. This is no better than Abraham claiming someone else’s land because “god” authorized it. Now Americans (through ignorant belief) enforce it and claim fulfilled prophecy. You know how many millions have been displaced over this since ‘47? Christianity still supports this ongoing atrocity.
              The donatists were rebelling against the Church. They just wouldn’t listen! So that was the beginning of force and it became the way of the church (whom should have known better) having that direct link to the ultimate morality.

              Liked by 1 person

            33. “Aah but christians have the ultimate morality and are supposed to know better! That’s the hypocrisy of the entire defense. Of course we would expect godless atheists to plunder the earth, but not us!! Lol.”

              You say Lol after that but you are indeed using different standards. You are not comparing Christian societies to the anti-christian societies of the last century. No you are leaving them out of the equation altogether and holding Christian societies to some imagined ideal.

              And again you try to twist and distort a complicated history of Israel. I have read some history on this. You may want to as well. Turkey owned that land before WWI. And it was then divided by the winners of WWI. A small slot of desert was given to Jews. (smaller than what was originally promised in the Balfour Declaration) And ever since all of the surrounding Muslim countries have been enraged that happened. They own so much more land and yet they are so angry that the Jews would be allowed to have any place to call home. And yes Jerusalem is obviously of more religious significance to Jews than it is to Muslims or Christians. Even after a large proportion of Jews were massacred because they had nowhere to go the muslims are still upset.

              Here are a couple of good books on the matter:
              https://www.audible.com/pd/Israel-Audiobook/B01L7GUS70?pf_rd_p=ae76b2bb-e63d-4a67-b357-dab3dee05ca1&pf_rd_r=J4AFK54VEENJN0N5EFYF&ref=a_lib_c4_libItem_B01L7GUS70

              https://www.audible.com/pd/O-Jerusalem-Audiobook/B002UZZDVE?pf_rd_p=ae76b2bb-e63d-4a67-b357-dab3dee05ca1&pf_rd_r=J4AFK54VEENJN0N5EFYF&ref=a_lib_c4_libItem_B002UZZDVE

              Like

  1. Mother said the Mormons have the true church! My son-in-law says his is the true church! The jw’s say they have the true……

    Making her drive must have been a tough sell, huh?

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Can’t wait until my minions are old enough to make them do work around the homestead. Also awesome ATV. I want one.

    ‘Do you sometimes get cranky and tell the kids that… when you were younger, you had to saddle a horse to go anywhere…’

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Oh that would delight her! She loves to hear those. We’re horseless right now, but considering giving it another go. It’s a way of life and pretty pricey nowadays. We have a lot of variety though

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Just rustle some. ha ha. I once knocked myself unconscious (well… almost unconscious) chasing livestock thieves through the veld when I was in the army. Ran into a telephone pole (painted with bitumen) at 2am in the morning….

        Like

  3. There are several theories about “truth.” Religion especially Christianity works with the coherence theory, which is truth is determined by the system of beliefs. If the statement negates the belief system, then it is false. This is different from the correspondence theory of truth where truth has a correspondence in the world (i.e. reality).

    Liked by 3 people

  4. Jim, you did not have the patience of Job. What your bible forgot to tell you is it takes a few million years to move that mountain and level it. Everybody wants things done today, but that’s not the way it works. Good things come to those who wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and….

    Liked by 4 people

        1. That’s what the fisherman says on the charter boat 🚣‍♀️ “fish-on” so the deck/hand will come help. We the people though, are easily lured and Hooked by bad ideas.

          Liked by 1 person

  5. I’m sorry, Jim, but the image of you holding out your hands and commanding the ground to level itself… I just started giggling. I do apologize.

    Did remind me of something. There’s this one self proclaimed prophet in Florida (I can’t remember her name now, grr) who shows up in the news bits over at places like the Friendly Atheist. Her hair alternates between pink and blue and she carries a real, genuine holy scepter, so you you know she’s not nuts or anything like that. She claimed she would wave her magic scepter and divert the one of the hurricanes that hit Florida recently by merely commanding it to go away and, well, didn’t work very well because they got hit anyway. But she claims it really, really worked because she didn’t tell it to turn aside like she said she would, she told it not to be as strong so instead of doing a 100 billion dollars in damage it only did 70 billion in damage or something like that. She also claims she’s been to Heaven several times and they have this huge Las Vegas style buffet up there, with shrimp and crab legs. Kids ride around on unicorns made out of jelly, and Jesus is like really buff and pretty hot stuff and … Oh lord it’s just too silly for words. Someone should really tell her family she’s off her meds again, but instead she’s got a church. Sigh…

    Speaking of moving mountains, we actually do that all the time. Well, small ones, anyway. Explosives, big earth moving equipment and all that – not easy and expensive, but we, not god, are the ones who move ’em.

    We even build ’em. Mountains, I mean. Got one going up about 2 miles from me. It’s up to a few hundred feet high now and can be seen for about six miles. Granted, it’s made out of garbage (it’s a landfill), but it’s the closest thing to a mountain around here for about 100 miles. Every time I look at it I keep thinking it would make one hell of a fun toboggan run in the winter. It’s so big now it would even make a decent ski run.

    Liked by 6 people

      1. It’s symbolic of religion. “Under The park like setting, just inches below the surface is trash. Deep and trusted mounds of trash covered with little topping.

        Liked by 4 people

    1. I enjoyed reading your comment. That’s a whole new meaning to trashing the slopes man, narly… I actually feel stupid now for staying in the church so long. Nothing worked, but that was my fault (that I stayed, and that it didn’t work) The last example of it not working is Atheism. We actually can be tempted beyond what we can bare.

      Like

  6. This is one of the truly impressive aspects of the Christian Con … blaming the believe for “not doing it right” while demanding that the “spread the word.” Talk about cheap labor! And if there are any labor disputes, the “employee” is always wrong. Sounds like it was created by Republicans (it was if you realize that scripture was written by rich elites).

    Liked by 5 people

    1. Haha. This is a “right to work” religion. Spot-on comment Steve. The most conservative is the biggest cheapskate. Minimum wage here is $12. I drive 20 minutes into Idaho and it’s $7.25. In-fricken real. That is slavery working for less than enough to live.

      Liked by 1 person

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s