Headcanon is an idea, belief or aspect of a character’s personality or physicality that is present in a piece of fanwork that does not correspond with information present in the canonical material.
For instance, it is largely accepted in the west that Jesus was white and is overwhelmingly depicted with elegant features and hair. Only makes sense, right? But evidence suggest that misses the mark.
The average Palestinian of the time was 5’1″. Using anthropological data and clues from the Bible, it is most likely Jesus looked something like this:
Jesus blended to the general population enough that Judas had to single him out from the apostles and was a working carpenter, so it is likely “if” the pretended messiah actually existed, he was far from the current depictions. While white Jesus certainly sells more tickets, it is highly unlikely he looked anything like the figure-head they’ve glorified.
There are many aspects of Christianity today although popular, have nothing to do with the original—the current state of the money changers church and religion being two of them. Be interesting to see pictures of this Jesus flaunt the halls of your favorite supremacy gathering.
Did you see the Mormons currently have $100billion in available cash? Who among them will turn over those tables?
TheCommonAtheist 
“Funny he don’t look Jewish he said. Near as I can figure, had him paged for a slightly anemic well dressed country nig….” Kinky Freedman. They ain’t making Jews like Jesus anymore.
They got the nose wrong.
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They did offer other similar interpretations. This does lead me to believe once again, that the story is likely an imagination. Why else would he not be true to his time and place?
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Time traveler from North America is the most plausible explanation
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You are correct Ken. It is actually more likely than one that rose from the dead then hid in plain sight of his executioners for fifty days.
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He must be white, or white supremicists would have to hate him. A Yiddish christ would be a failure.
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When giants existed on the earth takes on a whole new meaning, too. As well as the size of the ark in cubits.
I wonder how many of these Jesus fearing hate groups would abandon the faith in a real Jesus? At least the Muslims don’t pretend with phony images.
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For xtians, it is all about appearances. The whites need a white god.
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Some TBs get really weird when they are reminded that Jesus wasn’t some tall, sandy brown haired, blue eyed nordic type. It’s also great fun to remind them that Jesus was a devout Jew and doesn’t seem to have been interested in starting a new religion. I sometimes think that by looking at the four gospels with a slightly different perspective, they could be interpreted as the teachings of a devout Jewish man who was preaching against the corruption and abuses of the priests and pharisees, not someone trying to start a new religion.
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Even the Mormons got hoodwinked by the imagery. They restored the true gospel, ya know, with the whitest Jesus of all. But sometimes the devil is in that obvious detail—all prisoners of their bias.
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The problem with religion is that the TBs don’t really pay much attention to the truth or what even their own holy documents say. People disparage “cafeteria Catholics” who pick and choose what they will or won’t believe in the church’s teachings, but ALL religious people are like that.
The idea of religion is that we are supposed to alter our behavior and beliefs to fit the teachings of that particular religion to please some deity. But that’s not what really happens. What happens in all religions is that the teachings of the faith change to suit the beliefs and behaviors of the people. Religion isn’t a guide for living or gaining “salvation”, it is a technique that people use to justify their own beliefs, prejudices and behaviors.
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That’s how the narrative is so convincing. It has something for everyone—even the chauvinists.
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Indeed Grouchy. And let’s not forget that those 4 gospels are all in Koine Greek, the common Roman language for Gentiles. Much, if not most, of Yeshua bar Yosef’s teachings are lost forever UNLESS 1st-century manuscripts are discovered written in Syriac-Aramaic or Mishnaic Hebrew, the two languages Yeshua spoke to Jews during his hoped reformations. A lot of these controversies were HOT TOPICS of controversy at that time in Homeland Second Temple Judaism/Messianism.
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Again and forever the “Christians” conveniently forget they are GENTILES. They are not Jewish. Their “religion” is the invention of a (supposed) Jewish rabbi who had a magical vision in which he was told to convert them (the Gentiles) to the Jewish religion. Instead, somewhere along the way he got confused and ended up combining the two faiths and voila! We have today’s Christianity.
I continue to be amazed that no one wants to believe/accept this.
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Nan, you are SO right! The sheer Christian ignorance and/or gross denial of their “Savior’s” background, heritage, education, and his authentic intentions baffles even the most elementary secular minds! Not to mention Jewish minds of course.
However, most all Jewish Rabbinical scholars agree that Yeshua bar Yosef never intended to preach to Greek Gentiles for MANY well-established Talmudic reasons. They had to come from and go thru a completely different protocol: Noahide or Noachian Laws for Gentile converts. That was never Yeshua’s intentions. If we are to assume that the Gospel of Matthew is an accurate narrative of Yeshua’s activities and teachings, he was strictly concerned with the restoration of God’s Kingdom on Earth for his people, with barely any exceptions:
However, according to Noachian protocols, Yeshua later made an exception for this Canaanite (Gentile) woman. But these protocols were already very well established in Judaism by at least TWO CENTURIES before Jesus/Yeshua! Matthew 13:15 all but confirms this long-standing tradition, BUT it was NOT what Yeshua was reforming by/thru his reform movement. Israel and the Kingdom of God on Earth was the central core of Jewish Messianic fervor then.
It was the Herodian Saul/Paul from Tarsus that invented an entirely (heretical) new system of Greek/Hellenic faith for Gentiles. And most everyone today knows how Jews felt toward King Herod, his descendants, or anything/anyone associated with Herod. Hence, Pauline (Greek) Christology reflects nothing of what Yeshua bar Yosef was teaching and reforming. 🙂
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Yes, I was referring to Paul when I wrote “a (supposed) Jewish rabbi ” — in case I confused anyone.
And as I’ve noted on many past occasions — the one thing Christians seem to forget (or are unaware of), the gospels were written AFTER Paul wrote his letters. Thus, much of what is contained therein is tainted by Paul’s perspective of who Jesus was … or at least who he made him to be.
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Agreed Nan. And “tainted by Paul” is perhaps a very kind, gentle description 😉 of his personal Heikhalot* Jewish mysticism and his Greek Stoicism theology—none of which Jesus would’ve aligned with. It was a clever FLIP-n-TWIST by later Greco-Roman Patristic Church Fathers. However, in order to (fraudulently) correct or validate Paul’s unfortunate Herodian connections/lineage and anti-Semitism, those Church Fathers wrote/inserted that he descended from the tribe of Benjamin. But this was bogus. All Jewish records have absolutely no trace, no hints of any such tribal members in Cilicia, Anatolia at the time of Paul’s life. Nowhere. And Paul’s alleged education in the school of Hillel had to be used/transposed because its competitor or adversary was the school of Shammai, the less accepted, but much more mystical of the two Jerusalem schools. This “switch” was necessary in order to pacify contempt and criticisms from Jews, especially the hard-line Palestinian Jews.
* – Source: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/heikhalot-literature/
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Almost every comment I make regarding this bloke I always introduce him as the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth, simply because he is so obviously a narrative construct.
The character Paul is no different.
I smile when I consider the average height back then was 5’1”.
One tends to view things through our own modern lens and this was brought home to me the first time I wandered around the museum in my home town of Chester, where a fully caparisoned model of a Roman centurion was/is on display. (Chester being an ancient Roman fortress town).
To be blunt the soldier was a short arse, probably around he same height as I was as a 13 yr old.
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I am of the opinion most of the bible characters have no real existence & those that are real have no relation to what is claimed of them.
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Spot on!
Let’s be honest, there must be some serious disconnect to believe in the take of Noah, for example.
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That people believe those stories are true, absolutely true, leaves me very shocked
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The power of indoctrination.
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It does change the perspectives a bit. Why on earth would Jesus be depicted the way he is?
I was at Tulum Mexico and the doors on the ruins there were about five feet high as well. It didn’t stop them from making some incredible stone work and buildings. The current Jesus is simply idol worship. Seems like theres a saying about that somewhere.
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Reminds me of my visit to the Rose Hall mansion in Montego Bay, Jamiaca which was built in the mid 1700s. There were constant reminders to “watch your head” while passing through doorways between rooms. As I recall it, the former mistress of the house (whose three husbands all mysteriously died shortly after their marriage to her) had reportedly been a very lanky 4’11” (150 cm) and her bed was noticeably shorter than the ones we’re familiar with today. Must be something in the water that increased our stature.
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All those turns on the rack courtesy of the Church – altered our genes.
😉
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That’s probably more true than either of us realize. The Russian fox experiment revealed this in surprising authority. Bred for temperament only and changed the whole creature.
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Yes. The medieval apologists had a slightly more pragmatic take on what it meant to “grow in Christ”.
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No, this is blasphemy. Swedish Jesus is the true Jesus.
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Haha. In the last movie wasn’t he a Dane? Would be honest to have all the churches shorten their crosses and the Jesuses. This one they have is purely idolatry
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Fuck Denmark! That’s a false god.
Jesus
Is
Swedish.
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You can always tell a Dane but you can’t tell ‘em much.
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No, French. Jesus was French and one helluva short chef!
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Ray Newlands is actually 5’5”. Not quite Goliath by ancient standards. And he’s from Miami… C’est proche, mais pas de cigare.
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Good with sauces, I heard that, yep.
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Ha! He looks a bit shocked as if he just heard that his most infamous follower is a guy named Donald J. Trump.
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Hahaha. Or “me, a messiah”? Life of Brian seems on point here.
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So, my former friend (6’4″) who made all those racist and short people jokes is gunna burn for that crap? Oh, well, couldn’t happen to a (less) nicer guy.
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Hahahaha! Excellent post, excellent anthropological rendition based on Semitic data and evidence of 1st-century Palestine, and proper demarcation of the wide gulf between Greeks (the Hellenic culture of Rome) and Sectarian Hebrews throughout the Levant. This is just one more night-n-day contrast between Greco-Romans and their prejudice racism for Semitic people they often called Barbarians.
After the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE there was absolutely no way Rome would allow a barbaric foreign cult and messiah to become the “official” Imperial religion of Rome. They would distort it, omit parts, replace parts with fabricated Hellenic ideals like Apotheosis, and REWRITE their newly hijacked religion with heavy Greek traditions that Gentiles would be attracted to. Rome did this to practically all cultures they conquered.
Great stuff Jim! 🙂
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If it doesn’t matter what Jesus looked like, I’d expect a boom in Jesus/Cross retrofitting. Love to see the Bible Belts reaction to this sweeping discovery. Of course they already know this, which fits the rest of the pretended belief.
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Yep. Who else knows this “Christ” better than Gentile Greeks, who can’t understand ANY Mishnaic Hebrew or Syriac-Aramaic, nor speak it, much less translate it and pen it onto papyrus. 😄 So then what does a good Roman Gentile do to control the native populace? 😉
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Remember, if the KJV was good enough for Jesus it’s good enough for them ”Christyuns”
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There is no description at all of what Jesus looked like in the gospels. Some church fathers claimed that his appearance changed depending on who was looking at him. That was a good thing for artists. Good thing they ignored the other church fathers that deduced that Jesus was very ugly. There used to be Jesus as a Roman legislator or general(including him looking much like Constantine), and before that Jesus as a young Apollo figure(very much part of the Mediterranean environment). In Ethiopian Orthodoxy they have long had their own image of Jesus. The Copts have theirs too. The European looking Jesus image was only made to facilitate colonizing Europeans. Kind of like opening up a new branch of the franchise. Keep in mind that anyone who did not convert typically got enslaved, tortured, or killed. It isn’t like our ancestors invented Christianity, which was most prominent in Syria, Egypt, and Anatolia. They don’t emphasize the slavery part in Europe’s case, but Christians enslaved Frisians(Dutch) that did not convert, as just one example. Finns that did not convert were enslaved by Russians.
The early images of Jesus in pictures and writing in this period tried to emphasize Jesus as a young chieftain. The Heliand is a good example. Ever heard of how Jesus was born in his family hill-fort, taught the runes, and went about with birds on his shoulder? How he had thanes(the apostles) that attended him like a guard retinue? Peter cutting of the ear of the priest’s servant is dwelled on like a heroic act of defending his chief’s honor in that text. In the Dream of the Rood, Jesus is a young warrior who goes willing to the tree to be bound and take many darts from his enemies. And remember when Jesus fought dragons, like Sigurd or Beowulf? Granted, it is kind of like an older Thracian and Roman pattern of a mounted god fighting a snake. St. George and St. Michael are often depicted doing the same.
Compare to this image of Jesus(from a medieval Chinese Manichean church)
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The Romans were “The Borg” of their day, so it’s no surprise that Jesus took on the attributes of the captors.
“We are the Romans. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.”
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The line must be dawn here! No further!
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That’s what Arminius is thought to have said circa 9 CE.
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In African churches Jesus was depicted as being black. In North America he is white and this corresponds to the development of His iconography within western Europe (NA being largely populated by western Europeans during colonization). It is actually little surprise to any serious Christian that Jesus is not white. And it is not unique to Christianity that icons and images of religious figures are depicted in a style commensurate with the culture. Religion after all is a high level cultural exchange of norms, values and ideas. I understand that some Christians might be surprised and even alarmed at the sight of a dark skinned and haired Jesus, and if it shakes their faith as a result that is actually a personal problem. One’s faith ought not to be based on the artistic merits of icons and images– this is pretty straightforward.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a really tough sect to trod out to attack Christianity as a whole. The vast majority of Christians, and certainly nearly every organized church outside of the Mormons, do not consider them to be Christian. Mormons do not accept the Trinity and nor do they accept basic elements of the faith such as the Creeds and Scripture. While they call themselves Christian, and no one has a monopoly on the use of that term, it is disingenuous (or outright ignorant) to lift them up as an example of Christianity as a whole when the facts lay bare the reality that most Christians reject the Mormon church outright.
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See how easy it is to dismiss the Mormons because you don’t believe them? That is how all other religions appear to atheists. I’m told a lot of Christians don’t think Catholics are Christian either, and catholics all know where the others came from. It’s the problem of anchoring bias and belief in general. But really, 30,000 Christians sects can illustrate this better than I can—everyone adopts a dogma that aligns with what they are willing to accept, hence the different colored Jesus’s. Ethics is much more reasonable approach than obedience. Obedience allows discrimination by the majority, ethics is equality to all. Overcoming belief mode and the limitations of faith is the biggest hurdle facing humanity. It isn’t what you believe, but that you believe that is the problem. “We believe” is overtly problematic. No one is as dumb as all of us.
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You can lump my reject of Mormonism into the teachings of certain churches, but that does a disservice to the fact that regardless of my personal faith I am able to think for myself. There are a lot of Christians who do not think that Roman Catholics are Christian, but again when you take the time to learn about what they are saying and what the history of the catholic church is there is little reason to say that Roman Catholics are not Christian. The same cannot be said about Mormons on the whole. Just because someone has faith does not mean that said faith is not rooted in an intellectual foundation. In fact, a great many of the sects and divisions within Christianity that you speak accurately about are because people have misplaced faith without reason, ideas such as sola scriptura that say any person from any time and place can just pick up a Bible and interpret in their own, or so-called Christian scholars who are adamant that the Bible is the literal word of God. Although these features of Christianity are made popular in the secular world, and are passed around like memes among non-believers who are critical of the faith, the reality is that the majority of Christians do not take issue or see conflict in their faith with things like evolution, Biblical interpretation and even social teachings. I can understand the allure of cherrypicking these issues however, lazy academics like Dawkins have made it fashionable for modern atheists to paint Christianity with one giant brush stroke using the quacks who exist on the fringes. As I said in my original comment, it is disingenuous.
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You actually think for yourself by selecting from a handful of religions served on a plate? You, having a handful of selections have likely chosen the one you were born with. The only way to unlock the bias is through the integrity of unbelief. Not making eloquent excuses for time invested. It is a clean slate and a wide open world out there. Aligning with a dogma so full of contradictions, one is trapped into faith alone. That same faith that led your catholics to 1400 years of forced conversions everywhere it planted its flag, murdered popes and papacy’s sold, somehow evolved upward to the one true church? Now only the compliant have survived, but you think for yourself.
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I find it truly amazing how believers are simply unable to see beyond their own beliefs. No matter how you paint the picture … what colors or media you use … how much detail you provide … they still see what they want to see.
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It’s a simple test to see if you’ve been hijacked. Whenever a question arises and the answer is “we believe” in this, or that (or the other thing) right along with the group. See how I did that? Haha. But if your belief god has you critical of another mere belief, belief has you. And it ain’t even yours.
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Catholics rose to power on brutality and definitely not the teachings of Jesus Christ. In 315 AD Catholic Christians made it illegal to be a Pagan. In 356 AD, Catholic Christians then made it a death penalty punishment to be a Pagan. Catholic Christians would even beat to death, on the spot, a Pagan child found to be playing with a Pagan statute as a child plays with a doll in modern times.
This is not even close to the teachings of Jesus Christ. He said in his second part of his greatest commandment that we were to love all our neighbors as we loved God, with all of our hearts, souls, minds and strength. He did not make any exceptions. He even taught that you were to love your enemy and pray and bless those who curse you. Certainly the Roman Catholic Christians did not follow this teaching in dealing with their Pagan brothers and sisters they were trying to convert now did they?
Nor did Roman Catholic Christians treat Jews like they loved them as they were commanded. Many historical crimes were committed by the RCC against Jews, including during the Black Death period, where they initially blamed Jews for the spread of the disease and wiped out whole towns of them. Or during the Crusades to Jerusalem? Roman Catholic Christians actually murdered more Jews and even fellow Christians than they did Muslims. This is all recorded fact but you never really hear about this from Roman Catholics because it shows and proves they are oh so un-Christ like.
And while we are on the subject of Roman Catholics? Far too many leaders, from the current Pope, to the previous Pope, to Cardinals, Bishops and Archbishops, all who have been exposed for protecting pedophile priests who raped children, or priests, brothers, nuns and sisters, who ran the horror institutions of abuse, torture, enslavement, brutalizations of children, rapes of children, etc in their Magdalene and Good Shepherd Laundries, their Women’s and Children’s Homes and their Industrial Homes and Schools? Are still in power, proclaiming how they have a right to give us all moral guidance. Well maybe if Roman Catholic Christians in the pews all got up and demanded all of these “Pedophile Pimps” who covered up and protected these degenerates? Be defrocked, excommunicated, and then? Arrested and prosecuted for their Crimes Against Humanity and their Crimes Against the Children of the World and all the pew polishers demand that all accused pedos and child abusing priests, brothers, nuns and sisters be arrested and pay for their crimes, instead of denying victims of theirs justice by the church hiding behind the statute of limitations and sovereign immunity to get away with their crimes? People would think differently about the Roman Catholic Christians
And one would say? This goes completely against the teachings of Jesus and what should happen to those who so much as harms a single hair on the head of a child or by their actions drive that child away from the love of god.
As such? And until Roman Catholics do the above? Then they got no right to speak on the morals of other people.
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Realize this is coming from a Christian.
Those who hate us Christians? Have every right to do so. The majority of those who declared themselves Christians, both in history and to the present day? Are not Christians in the least sense. And as a Christian, one who is doing all he can to follow the Lords greatest commandments as well as loving my enemy, and never judging others? I apologize for them.
The true mark of a real Christian, a true follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ? Is above all else, is a follower of Jesus greatest commandment, especially the second part. We are to love all our neighbors, each and every one of them, with all of our hearts, souls, minds and strength. We are even commanded to pray for our enemies, to even feed our enemies, and never rejoice or call harm to them. We are to turn the other cheek, again and again. Before we are to pray to God through Jesus and ask for forgiveness? We are to remeber all who we are angry with and before we ask for forgiveness? We are to go to our enemies and offer our love and forgiveness first to them, then? To ourselves. And do all we can to walk in the light and love of Jesus at all times. This is the mark of what a True Christian is.
Far too many of those who proclaim themselves Christians? Have preached unmitigated hate. They have committed crimes against humanity with their twisting of Christianity’s true message and meaning. What past Christians have done in the name of Christ, to Pagans, to Native Americans, to Jews, to many others, is something that all of us must take responsibility for and accept as fact and truth. And what present Christians do, in spreading hate, bigotry, misogyny, and evil, against others, be they Muslims, lgbts, atheists, agnostics, Pagans, or any others? Must be called out, stood up to and stopped at all costs. And? It is the fault of all those who proclaim themselves True Christians and followers of Jesus Christ who failed to stand up to them and stop their acts, their promotion of hate, bigotry and other evil in the name of Christianity and Jesus.
It saddens me to no end. I realize how Christianity rose to power. That all of the denominations are guilty of these Crimes Against Humanity. That if only Christianity had not rose to power on slaughter, on brutality, on torture, on forced conversions of others. That if it had rose on the message of love, of forgiveness, of non-judgment, of truly helping all your fellow human, no matter who they are, that Christianity could have been a beautiful thing for humanity. It saddens and horrifies me when I have studied the real truth about how Christianity rose to power. All the lives lost. All the innocent people slaughtered. And this is when I made my decision to do all I could to change this and show how a True Christian, a follower of the real teachings of Jesus Christ should be.
It is far past time that all those who profess to be a True Christians take the words of Martin Luther King Jr to heart.
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
Well? Many of us Christians who do our best to follow the Lords greatest commandments, to love all, and to never judge another person, and to not spread hate, bigotry and evil in the name of Jesus? Are sick and tired of those who do. And you can believe that. We are working on it. But you all also know what we face. It is thought of as wrong to attempt to stand up to the evil that is done in the name of our religion, our Lord and Savior. You all saw this when the editor of Christianity Today spoke out against Christians supporting Trump. But we will continue to fight this.
Because Jesus taught us above all else, to love all of our fellow human beings. And if Jesus can love those who tortured him, brutalized him, hung him on a cross? And forgive them? Then that is the way we who profess to follow Jesus Christ and live our lives by his example? Should live. And teach others to live.
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Your missing a key point here. If god was concerned about your neighbors he would not have put your love directed to himself first. “No man can serve two masters” is obviously a truism. It’s why ethics will always surpass religious belief from this point on. Your first allegiance belonging to god means how you treat you neighbors is up to interpretation. When “we believe” anything the group (yes the group is a Christian principle to gather often) becomes the master. Jesus, if he was god, knew he made two (and more) commandments that are in opposition to each other.
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The basic ethics of a Christian is supposed to be as follows.
1. You are to love all of your fellow humans.
2. You are to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, house the homeless, treat foreigners and immigrants as if they were members of your own family, visit those who are sick and in prison.
3. You are to do no murder, not steal, not bear false witness, etc.
While these moral ethical codes existed before the rise of Christianity? I see no problem in espousing those moral and ethical codes taught by Jesus Christ.
The teaching of Jesus in this case is, that God loves all, even those who hate him. And that is how we should be towards all our fellow human beings. Yes, we are to hate evil, but we are not to hate the person. And a whole lot of those who proclaim themselves Christians? Miss this point completely and prove it with their words and actions.
I do see a problem when those who proclaim themselves Christians? Do not and I stand up to them and will continue to do so.
Christianity has been used to justify, and absolve Christians that have caused a whole lot of evil in the world and in human history. And there are many of us Christians out here who accept it and seek to do all we can to change this.
In truth, if you truly follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? Then you know in your heart that love is above all else. And those who spread hate and evil in the name of Jesus Christ? Deserve to be stood up to, exposed and at all chances, changed and shown the errors of their ways.
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“ Yes, we are to hate evil, but we are not to hate the person” And the group gets to decide what evil is through consensus. “No one is as dumb as all of us”. It was also just men, as part of a group that got to decide what stays or goes in the Bible. I get your point though. Following Jesus is supposed to lead to bliss. It just doesn’t do that.
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A lot of the Levitical laws? Are absolutely disgusting, that I will agree.Death penalties for mouthy children? Sicking two she bears on 42 kids to shred them for making a joke about a prophets bald head? Forcing a raped virgin to marry her rapist or stoning to death an adult woman who was raped because she did not scream loud enough to be heard? Yeah, wrong.Thankfully? These are not real laws on our books. Cause if they were? I certainly would speak out against them. But there are also a lot of good rules and laws, like thou shall not do any murder, thou shall not steal, etc. And the actual rules we are now supposed to live by? Are the ones set down by Jesus. Which above all else? Is to love all. And I as this kind of Christian? Do not see any harm in this.
And yes, these laws are also in our secular laws. But you also got to agree some secular based laws are just as foul and brutal and evil as biblical Levitical laws. Like say the death penalty. We believe that certain classes of criminals are so foul, so evil, that we put them to death. And it is we who decides who gets put to death. But how do we then declare ourselves a civilized people with moral, civilized secular laws by putting people to death? And? How many innocent people have in fact? Been put to death? Quite a few. Instead of putting them to death? How about life in prison without parole? Would that not actually be more civilized of us to do so?
So both Christians and secular people have all got to check their own laws and rules and do something about the ones that harm others.
And the truth is? No Christian should in fact? Demand others follow the rules and laws and commandments of Christianity unless they are Christian. Nor should they create rules and laws and put them on our law books in violation of the wall of separation of church and state rules. Our rules and laws are secular, designed that way by the Founding Fathers for two purposes, to keep the government out of the religious, and to keep the religious out of the government. You have every right to believe in what ever religion, what ever god or being you wish to, or not to believe in this country and no one, not Christian, not Muslim, not Buddhist, or any other religious person or group should demand any other follow their rules.
Pretty weird hearing a Christian say this huh?
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It’s not weird hearing this from you, really. See, you know better all on your own just as most people do. As far as Levite law goes, it just illustrates to me that the inerrant word of god changes from time to time (Levitical Law was much closer to the source of your religion than you) and the word of god now need explainers to fulfill prophecy and don’t forget context. Eternal truth needs no context.
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The other problem with that kind of talk is that it ignores the Bible itself. For example, that Christian who agrees that the Torah is full of bad laws, or things that they don’t like, anyway. I have seen this attitude or excuse in many Christians before. Do they not read it clearly in the text where it says “thus sayeth the LORD” before or after these laws? Taking it at its word, these rules were not just “made up” by some Jews, or by any human legislator. They were given by Yahweh himself in the text, and if you say Jesus is Yahweh, then Jesus gave them. That is what many early Christians believed. All the appearances of Yahweh or other figures like the angel of Yahweh, the commander of the army of Yahweh that appeared to Joshua, the burning bush, in the Old Testament were considered by them to have been Jesus. Even the title of κύριος that they gave to Jesus was taken from the word used to gloss over Yahweh’s name in Greek translations. Do they think that Yahweh is stupid, that he gave bad laws? The Bible repeatedly calls for these laws to be followed without question. When Moses had Yahweh around to consult with, Yahweh was always on the side of strict, merciless enforcement. At one point Yahweh considered just killing all of the Israelites and starting his project over with Moses. Moses had to point out how bad for his reputation as a god that would be, to get Yahweh to relent.
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And yet Jim, when you look at Jesus greatest commandments he gave? He actually stated those two commandments come above all the laws of the prophets. That in all things you do? Love comes first.
Matthew 22:36-40: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
It is not loving to have your child stoned to death if they get mouthy. It is not loving to have a virgin girl who was raped then be forced to marry her rapist for life. It is not loving to stone to death a married woman who was raped, but did not scream loud enough to be heard. It is not loving to sick 2 she bears on 42 children to have them ripped to shreds and eaten for making a joke about the prophet Elisha’s bald head.
Another major change here from the Old Testament to the new is about revenge, etc. Vengance was allowed against those who did you wrong in the Old Testament. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Yet? Jesus new teaching was that not only were you to pray for your enemies and love them? You were to turn the other cheek a thousand upon a thousand times.
Luke 6:27-36: 27 “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
The way a True Christian lives is by following the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ. Loving your neighbor, loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, and doing all you can to follow the teachings in Matthew
Matthew 25: 35-40: 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
This is the way a True Christian lives. They do not come upon another person in hate. They are to come to all people, even their enemies, in love. And if you meet a person who proclaims themselves a Christian and they spread hate, bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, etc? Then I have every right to call them out and stand up to them. And? So do you and anyone else. And this is what must be done. All people must stand up to those Christians who are extremists, who spread hate, bigotry, misogyny and other ills to humanity, just like all people must stand up to all religious extremists, ala Muslism, etc.
NO HUMAN BEING has a right to harm another human being because of their religious beliefs. NO ONE, not a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, a Pagan, etc. And if someone is using religious beliefs to cause others harm, to advocate hate, prejudices, phobias, etc? Then every human being has a right to stand up to them and put them in their places.
When I see what I call basically ChristoTalibans like say the Westboro Baptist Church crew, or Walid and Theodore Shoebat, or Scott Lively, Matt Barber, Rick Wiles, Jim Bakker, Franklin Graham Jr, or all the others like them call for mass murder, or death penalties for certain classes of people like lgbts, or abortion doctors, or call for a Civil War if a President is being impeached? Or use Christianity to spread racism and bigotry like the supposed “Christian based” KKK, or any of the Aryian Nation crews, or the Proud Boys etc? Then myself, you and each and every other human being again? Has a right to call these people out, stand up to them and prevent them from harming others in the name of their false standards of what they proclaim is a Christian, but is not.
These people should be rejected, stood up to, ostrasized until they learn their lesson that Jesus did not come to preach hate but love. Above all else. We are to be guided by LOVE.
Matthew 18:15-17: “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
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I’m going to keep this short. Your answers merely prove your religion needs a lot of explaining for you to validate it, and that your god has changed as the people would no longer tolerate Yahweh’s vengeful streak. We have a good example of that right now as secular law has pushed the church into accepting more people and lifestyles (very slowly in spite of its bigotry) and in spite of the efforts to suppress it, the world is safer than ever before and also more secular than ever before. Coincidence? Hah! Statistically it is the safest and most prosperous time to be alive since records have been kept. The churches use of fear to keep followers is also a lie. These aren’t the worst of times by any stretch of the imagination. The church has become less brutal simply because it has lost the ability to enforce it’s “love”.
The greatest commandment is actually the appeal to faith. Now belief is the cornerstone of the religion. “Believe in him and be saved” Why the appeal to faith with the risen lord supposedly standing right there? You don’t first have to love god and friend when all can be forgiven by believing. Loving the lord takes precedence over loving your neighbor when all can be forgiven by belief, and it’s up to the explainers to determine who gets fair treatment.
In spite of any evidence of the failures you’ll keep on believing. This is the faith trap. It’s neurologically sound principles have hardwired the neurons by turning belief into a virtue and mere faith into an intellect.
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By caring for our neighbors? We show gods love. We show our love of Jesus and his love for us all. When you feed a hungry person? When you cloth a naked person? When you put a roof over the head of a homeless person? You are showing your love for living Jesus commands and by extension? Your love for your fellow human being.
I am not saying that you need Jesus or God to do this. I have met many great atheists, agnostics, Pagans, Muslims and others who do this on a daily basis. It is the way I was brought up. In a real Christian family where we acted like this and many of our Christian friends were also like this. Jesus was our guiding principal, on the teachings of love and how you are to treat all your fellow human beings. We were taught to not care about the color of a persons skin, or even what religion they practiced, or if they practiced no religion at all. They are your fellow human being and if they are in need of help? You help them.
What I am saying is. if you are going to proclaim yourself a Christian and you do in fact? Follow his teachings? Then you have a right to call yourself a Christian. But if you do the complete opposite of his teachings? Then you got no right to call yourself a Christian and should be stood up to. Not only by fellow Christians who do all they can to live the true teachings of Jesus, but by everyone.
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I do think that most Christians are genuine people trying to do their best and find there way in the world. It is a slippery slope in any group setting. I “believed” most of my life and am ashamed of some of the things I thought and said about others that were not “keeping the commandments” of god. But it wasn’t me. My brain had been hijacked by bible verses and the group. That all changed in a day. I see a lot of Christians abandoning the churches too, because they know better—now better even than the Bible. “For, for every virtue in the Bible there is an easy way to justify the opposite”
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I see a lot of Christians abandoning the churches too…
Well I did the same lol.
I spent 6 years earning my Masters degree in biblical studies and comparative religion. I was a minister of the church for almost 23 years til I walked away about six years ago. Why? Because I am one of those ministers who truly believes in speaking the truth. And calling out the evil of those who dare call themselves Christians but by their words and actions, prove they are not. I am a minister who believes, above all else? That we are to follow Jesus greatest commandment of loving all our neighbors, and the biblical teachings of helping the poor, the immigrants, etc.
As a “Christian” I am supposed to hate certain people. I am especially supposed to hate lgbts, Muslims, atheists, Pagans. But I do not. And I called out what I term as “Christian Pastors of Hate” who go around spreading outrageous hate and death. I got called out when I started standing up to all the Christian pastors and priests exposed for harming children and the leaders who protected them and I got trashed for it. Proudly so. I stood for the victims and the survivors, not the perpetrators. I got called out when I said not only do Black Lives Matter, but LGBTs Lives Matter. I got called out for stating that not only aborted fetuses matter, but the woman carrying those fetuses in their wombs lives matter too and no woman who is raped, or abused, or any girl who was raped, and became pregnant by that? Should be forced to carry that fetus, nor should any woman be denied abortions if their lives are at stake. Holy crap did I go through it for that one. I do not hate Muslims. I know they have done evil, but I am taught by Jesus to even love them and I will follow his teaching on this. And I get unholy hell from Christians for this.
So yeah, there are many of us Christians? Who are sick and tired of the hypocrisy and evil done in many Christian churches and walked away. Too bad we all cannot somehow join together and start a real Christian church, based on the teachings of Jesus. Because I believe if people saw this? They would actually see what a True Christian is supposed to act like and maybe then? More will stand up and do what is truly right? One can only hope.
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“Too bad we all cannot somehow join together and start a real Christian church, based on the teachings of Jesus. Haha. This is like dejavú all over again. I think you’re on the right track in some ways. Nobody is doing it right, in this I agree.
Pardon me but I think you may suffer a bit from the sunk cost fallacy. You have a lot into this but it will never set you free.
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