Prayer in Schools

Get out your prayer rugs boys and girls.

Reuters:Full article in link

Trump on Friday said Democratic opponents would “tear down crosses” and pledged to bring prayer to public schools at a re-election rally to shore up evangelical support.

“We are defending religion itself, it’s under siege,” Trump said. “A society without religion cannot prosper.”

Pastors gathered around Trump on the stage for an opening prayer, while much of the audience remained standing with their hands aloft. 

“These angry radicals want to impose absolute conformity by censuring speech, tearing down crosses and symbols of faith and banning religious believers from public life“—

Sounds like we’ll all be ok then. Just what we need, more thoughts and prayers. Also sounds like rhetoric and hateful propaganda. Maybe we are winning…

Author: jimoeba

Alternatives to big box religions and dogmas

80 thoughts on “Prayer in Schools”

  1. I don’t remember ever not being allowed to pray in school. I never did, but some people did. I remember a few that prayed before class, in a little prayer group. Prayer was never removed, so it does not need to be put back in. It has been a while since I was in school though, did anything change in the last 13 years? Did the atheists finally criminalize prayer in school when I wasn’t looking?

    Atheists don’t have much of a history of criminalizing prayer. I can’t remember any atheist in this country doing that. Christians though, have a long history of criminalizing prayer. They only want to impose their sort of prayer on everyone. Christians have killed each other merely for using different numbers of fingers in crossing and blessing gestures. Aside from attacking each other, Christians have banned Jewish prayers, heathen prayers, Greek prayers, Buddhist prayers, and Hindu prayers, and those are just the cases I know. The Christian pattern from the start has been to scream about oppression, even as they actually oppress others(or intend to). It reminds me of Theodoret’s horror at the religious tolerance of Valens and Julian. Theodoret actually declared that tolerance of non-Christians(and Gnostic Christians) is the same as oppressing Christians. The depth of the shamelessness in these people amazes me.

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    2. Pretty sure prayer is allowed in school. It cannot be disruptive or protestitory (not a real word) but it’s just not a sanctioned, school led ordeal.

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    1. I noticed in the Reuters article the rally was held at an institution that teaches the highly controversial (among Christians and Secularists) “Prosperity Gospel,” but that doesn’t necessarily mean all the Pastors there were the charismatic denomination. The article did say:

      According to a 2019 survey here by the Pew Research Center, 43% of U.S. adults, or some 110 million people, identify with Protestantism; 59% of those, or 64 million are born-again or evangelical Christians.

      This narrows it down a bit, but the article does not hint of just how far apart many/several Christian denominations are with their theologies—many within Christianity hate other “heretical” Xian denominations as Satanic, my ex-wife’s father’s denomination/doctrines (Southern Baptist and Presbyterian) being one. If news agencies would ADD just these particular details, it would show that tRump’s religious evangelical support can be easily fractured and ineffective IF reporters and news editors would distinguish these (sharp) differences.

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      1. I’m sure he’ll be pandering and fear mongering to the other sects soon enough. He sounded like an apologist got to him. The best nations are the most godless ones.

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            1. Yes it is Mary. Just goes to show you that there is still a vastly significant part of the American population that puts emotionally-based “Faith” over facts, truth, and/or high probabilities. Amazing in this day and age, huh? 😲😔

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    2. “ whiff of dear old Adolf” perfectly observed. Funny though by belief the right can’t sii it sir. I wonder how this affects people like Lady of Reason who says she’s an atheist and is also a trump apologist?

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  6. I am NOT “a-theist” *not today anyway*, but with the way definition changes (society dictates), that will eventually change – and I will also change appropriately.
    But back to topic — The school I went to (35+ years ago) didn’t have any prayer time. If it did, I would have a problem – even then.

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    2. Wow Mary! I think I got motion sickness. I wonder if anybody recognizes the benedictators there? Taboo?
      I thought the first guy looked very familiar

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        1. From Wiki—“Paula White, is a “Prosperity Gospel” pastor, author, and televangelist. From 2014 until May 2019,[1][2][3] she was senior pastor of New Destiny Christian Center, in Apopka, Florida, a non-denominational, multicultural megachurch. She was formerly the co-pastor of Without Walls International Church in Tampa, Florida, a church she co-founded with pastor and then-husband Randy White in 1991. She hosts a television show, Paula White Today”

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            1. Oh jeez. “White⁩ tests the boundaries between ‘religious freedom’ and criminal mail fraud and wire fraud,” Painter argued in a Wednesday morning tweet. “‘Send me money and God will make you rich.’ Now she uses her White House position to make her sales pitch” is indeed a Ponzi scheme

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            2. Another tidbit. She has been married three times and her current husband is Jonathan Cain from the old rock band…Journey

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            6. I think it’s more along the lines of:

              Lovin’, touchin’, squeezin’ each other

              Na na na na na na
              Na na na na na
              Na na na na na na
              Na na na na na

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  8. There are two issues here: government sponsored prayer in school and government sponsored (forced) scripture reading in school. In both cases, knowing who the plaintiffs were and which SCOTUS voted that these were unconstitutional can be enlightening. “If you vote for me I promise to continue doing things that are illegal and unconstitutional.” Wow.

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    1. I know these prayer issues will likely never come to fruition. It’s all about the evangelical vote right now. And they are gullible enough to buy it (while the left is busy tearing down crosses)

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      2. I know these prayer issues will likely never come to fruition.

        Don’t be too sure about that. Because of Mitch McConnell (and partly Obama’s unwillingness to use recess appointments), Trump has been loading up the federal courts with unqualified judges. There are plenty of issues that could be decided at these lower levels that are simply never taken up by the Supreme Court.

        Prayer in schools is probably large enough that it won’t get past them, but I can see a lot of other church-state separation issues that can.

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        1. Well said sir. If you watched the video Mary posted you see during the prayer they rambled on about Trumps greatness. He was just smiling smug and soaking it all in. He’d take the presidency at any cost to our freedom. He looked like a king baboon being de-ticked by his brood.

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  9. Hmm . . . what’s this? A political grifter addressed a room full of spiritual grifters? Say it ain’t so!

    “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.” 2nd Timmy 4:3

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  10. ah, the evangelical wannabee theocrats. This type of Christian knows that they are a dying breed and have decided that they must force others to agree with them to get their desperately needed external validation.

    what failures.

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    1. I can’t recall a theocracy that extended more human rights than less. In the old days every town and hamlet was affected by rule of some masochist whacko religious tyrant. Less religion has equaled less oppression, not more.

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  11. The last time I checked, students can pray in the public schools. No one is prevented from saying a personal pray, say, at lunch, or getting together with friends before school starts at the flagpole to pray.

    But, how on earth, could we have officially sanctioned teacher led prayer in the classrooms? We live in a very pluralistic culture. Suppose, for example the teacher is Wiccan, and prayers are being offered to the goddess? Suppose the teacher is Muslim and is praying to Allah? Would Christians parents like this? What about if a child is a non-theist? How would this student’s parents feel about their child being part of a prayer meeting?

    The whole thing just doesn’t make good sense to me or reflect wisdom.

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    1. Of course not. The attack on religion is strictly on Christianity, ya know. The entire speech by trump is simply pandering to evangelical, uneducated propaganda, but the reality is Christianity will fail on its own lack of merit. Belief has had its run. We can do better.

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      1. “…Christianity will fail on its own lack of merit.”

        I really do hope you’re right Jim. I really do! But so much of that common sense failure relies on adequate to above-average intelligence AND the deep desire for fairness or equability in examining ALL DATA, ALL EVIDENCE, and ALL OPPOSING viewpoints, as well as what is simply not there, i.e. fabrication and biased imagination. THEN deciding based on what all that information leads you to, NOT what your heart and personal desires might be. All Abrahamic religious followers have not been doing this—for several reasons—for the last 3-4 millenia or less. 😦

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        1. I do think some feel the pressure. It has to be an outright denial of fact now to keep faith. One big breakthrough could seal the deal, but there are forever those that believe and have no idea there is any controversy because they do not take the time to investigate.
          For instance, the LDS came out with this transparency program
          Where they came clean on the Joseph Smith history and translations using a seer stone in his hat. It found its way to the back page of some apologetic journals, while the majority of Mormons have no idea and are still glued to the elegant pictures of Smith using the Urim and Thummim from Abraham Smith had inherited through Israel’s descendant in the America’s. It’s all proved to be quite the hoax, yet the church still grows. Nobody knows.
          It took 900 years for Christianity to eradicate the last of the Greek gods. If that happens now we’ll all be dead and gone before it’s demise.

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          1. Fascinating history on Joseph Smith and the Mormon and LDS churches. The part about Abraham Smith descending from the 12 tribes in Israel to the Americas is equally as hilarious as it is pitiful and outright delusional. Then again, there have been multitudes of people with psychiatric Christ-Messiah complexes or some type of divine empowerments, huh? 😄

            “We do not need to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the Universe.”
            — Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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    1. I don’t expect Trump will be born again any time soon—EVER! But hey, what good are your friends if you can’t use ‘em? Reeking hypocrisy, they have their god.

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    2. I did find all the unanswered prayers in the Hamilton Path Problem of physics. Like an electron—waiting to be paired-up in an infinite possibility of locations, prayers are waiting for a god to poof into existence. So far no takers.

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  14. The difficulty in this is I can relate to prayers I’ve had, as well as others, and that they were answered, but one determined not to believe will not be convinced. So, I mention prayers are answered, and those seeking will discover, perhaps, for themselves. It’s a private thing. And sometimes others need to hear that prayers do work, in that our Father is listening. More can be understood in the bible.

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    1. There is no difficulty in it whatsoever. Prayer is a crapshoot lottery. When the dust settles, prayer or not, people go on surviving. Things have a way of equilibrium. Next time you feel you need to pray, just wait. About the time you think it can’t get any worse, comes the calm. Last year I had a caller pray for me and cast out the evil Satan from my unbelieving life, that I would believe in Jesus. Well, here I am. Absolute proof prayer does nothing except when you get the favorable result, the lesson learned (in gods time of course) My favorite is the Christians casting away the tornadoes into someone else’s neighborhood. Yeah, prayer works. If you pray in earnest one time without results, that would be enough to right a lemon law on religion.

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      1. Hey, Jim. As you know, the sharing was for readers. If you want the last word, I’ll leave it to you. Your public blog.

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    2. You Stated — “…one determined not to believe will not be convinced.”

      My Response — The bible disagrees with you… Pharaoh was convinced despite trying hard not to believe.

      You Stated — “It’s a private thing. And sometimes others need to hear”

      My Response — I think the world has spent a great deal of time listening to us talk about what we want for all of them but it gets a bit confusing when they see us support people like Trump. Maybe we are entering a time where we need to do more and talk less.

      Matthew 5:16
      16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

      I think we will be more believable when we are marching, unified, to the border to remove those children from cages. When we are more excited about healthcare than we are about guns. When we stop dropping bombs on everyone after we talk about peace.

      You don’t know what I already know, hypocrisy is making it hard to hear you.

      https://realitydecoded.blog/category/10-things-christian/

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  15. You Stated — “Maybe we are winning…”

    My Response — Nope

    No one is winning. Forced prayer in school is not only bad it’s sick (or evil for my Christian brothers and sisters).. It would seem Trump can take any bad idea and make it a rallying cry. School is for learning the agreed-upon (often outdated material) not personal religious or political beliefs.

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    1. Evil always sees good as bad. Kind of like Dracula hiding from the light. Why worry about others practicing their faith. No one is forced. It’s supporting students’ rights to believe and read. There’s hope.

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      1. You Stated — “Why worry about others practicing their faith.”

        My Response — You are right, there is no need to worry.

        But

        Why would you want a school to support kids worshiping satan in the hallways everyday? Are you saying that you want kids to learn about witchcraft during recess?

        In my mind they should only be at school to lean about math, science and computers. Any extra time should be spent studying but you are saying it’s ok to talk about animal sacrifices and spirit guides at random during school hours on school grounds.

        I don’t understand the logic.

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        1. It’s possible to read things many ways. It’s possible to put up a ton of “what ifs.” Our constitution supports freedom of religion. In this, many children find hope. Whether the child has muslim parents, Christian parents, Catholic parents, Buddhist parents, or otherwise is freedom. I’ll not worry about those with other beliefs. But I think, in a rational society supporting the constitution, much worry about the other things is not necessary. **I know the arguments. But the reality is supporting people’s rights to their freedoms, also following the laws, which all should follow the constitution.

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          1. That seems fair. I’m all about people being free to do what they want. I just wanted to be clear that once you open the door. It’s opened to everyone.

            Just out of curiosity I’m guessing you also believe drugs should be legalized since the constitution supports it, is that correct?

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          2. You’ll not worry about others beliefs? Nonsense. You already do. Wait til those other beliefs start to infringe on your ability to live as you choose, like me living under your beliefs. You Christians have the biggest market share and are the first to cry foul, even at the hint of changing your right to monopoly.

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            1. It’s like you can’t hear yourself. Good luck with that. Once common sense is removed, there’s no reason to explain. There must be a common ground of beliefs for that’s how laws are created. Then there are those who don’t want to adhere to common understanding, and there’s no discussion available there.

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            2. I wish you could understand how asinine your narrow view is. “ There must be a common ground of beliefs for that’s how laws are created. And lobbyist, special interest, payoffs, and squeezing in your favorite Supreme Court goonies. Rogue senators proselytizing foreign dignitaries on taxpayer dimes, like on “The Family” and no, of course not. You could care less what others believe? You’re a disingenuous nob and a liar.

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            3. Oh, and this was for the readers. Maybe if you had anything worthwhile to say you’d have a blog of your own. You’ve passed your limits on special pleading.

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            4. What you are doing is showing your true colors. I was hoping for real discussions. But for the readers, I thought to share as always. I always encourage people to think for themselves, and by sharing, they dredge up the ones who appear honest to show their true colors. We always hope understanding will come to them, for we should always hope for others and seek “real” corrections for ourselves, as I know I have blind spots as others. But I’m looking. God be with you.

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            5. You don’t get a free pass to post your dismissive drivel and ignore every single contrary fact with a faithful handwaving and preach utter nonsense. Speaking of true colors, I was more than gracious to let you use me. Your welcome

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            6. I imagine someone sitting at their computer terminal with a beer on the side, tons of unread books, magazines, and such, a partially eaten pizza, and…. Peeking through the blinds at neighbors. (By the way, humor has shed the light on many things and keeps things in perspective.). The difficulty for many, when it comes to hearing others’ opinions, is hearing others’ opinions. Listening and discussing, or not discussing and being respectful, is better on a public forum, like this one. The other way requires a sort of pomposity and self-grandizement: not real discourse. That’s why I usually start out for the readers, and would leave it at that if the public blogger could understand the dynamics. Well, I think regarding this, I’ve shared and demonstrated, so I leave the host to complain alone in his den. Yelling at the wall. But I do wish better for him.

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            7. I don’t drink. I live in the mountains in a cabin and work as a building and construction engineer, though I am not schooled in engineering. I design homes and apartment buildings, and even some churches. I have an orderly library. I know it’s hard to imagine normal outside your narrow view, but people have gotten along fine without your religion for millennia. In fact, after 500 years of Christianity the Native American is a shadow of their former selves. Really, what you’re selling is not special in any way. Life in better without it.

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      2. Evil does not seek good as bad. I’m sure there are things you do in private you would never do in public, even in front of the most evil person, or vile. What kind of evil are you talking about?

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  16. Recently, actually all along, but more recently, I’ve been reading more about history and the words of many past figures. Of course, it’s always interesting. But I’ve also noticed commonalities. I have been fascinated with the understanding shared by many, but also the intellectual capacities of some that cannot see the forest through the trees. I suppose, we all have blind spots, some more than others, but we all are learning. One thing I’ve come to realize is it’s when we think we know that many stop pursuing. Open a door and more questions come forth.

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    1. Christianity is the ultimate door stopper. How long has it been now that we bicker over who has the best imagination? Now we call it faith and smile at the pseudo-virtue. Christianity’s claim on truth is the monotheistic stall.

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  17. One thing I’ve come to realize. Some people stop at their own imagination, but never consider where that imagination is coming from, unable to place a gap between themselves and their thoughts. I think all were born with some understanding, but through years of practice, they learned to turn off the understanding and fully place themselves in the intellect, fascinated with their own thinking, but again, never considering where the thoughts are coming from. When we place a “gap” between ourselves and our thoughts with a real desire for real understanding, then a separation of intellect/rhetoric and understanding occurs. However, then we also see our own errors. A prideful intellectual never wants to see this. A person who has done much wrong and doesn’t want to “see” it, or doesn’t want to change, falls back to the intellect and the marvel of their own imagination. How do I know. I am such a person. I see my own errors, pondering upon the mistakes of the past, which brought me to realize things I didn’t want to see. But when I prayed for understanding, I got it, with wonderful insights but also my mistakes and character flaws.

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