Where All the Bad People Are

Things are not nearly as bad as they need it to be.

“Americans grapple with evil amid the decline of religious faith”—The Heritage Foundation

Roaming through some end-time prophecy (the doom and gloom stemming from Christian belief) when it struck me that I don’t really know any bad people. End-times are actually better times than ever before.

Even this mild “prophecy” is at odds with observations.

“Even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased“—Daniel 12:4

“I Just love this sign, because it is clearly pointing to our day today, and it cannot be refuted by anyone”—End-Times Website. We actually have an information explosion, while the depth of individual knowledge is likely at an all-time low.

I also disagree on other points. Prior civilizations have also had varied types of advanced knowledge compared to what we currently have today. Certainly we have a different type of knowledge than at other times, but is there actually more knowledge? And the explosion? What we have is “A handful of real innovators and a planet full of end users”.

“The world is going to hell in a handbag”—yet life expectancy is up, infant mortality down, and extreme poverty is down, (way down by billions over the past 50 years) Your chances of living out your natural life (and even beyond that) is greater now that ever before. Seems that god is punishing us with long and prosperous lives in this “wicked and perverse” generation.

I suppose the real fate of the world the rests on the transgendered and homosexuals refusing therapy or celibacy. The True Christian© morality doesn’t seem to be accurate here either, as we embrace the lives of every human life gets better.

I have traveled around this great county to all but one of the fifty states. Good people outnumber bad 100 to 1—no, I dare say 1000 to 1. Rarely ever have I crossed paths with a human that wasn’t just awesome in one way or another. It’s the best of times, but you’ll never hear that from the pulpits or the news selling fear. The Bible prophecies and the preachers are at complete odds with the way the world is trending.

Where on earth are all the evil people?

Author: jimoeba

Alternatives to big box religions and dogmas

285 thoughts on “Where All the Bad People Are”

  2. Quote: “Where on earth are all the evil people?” Well, apart from the truly psychopathic types which people trust to make the right decisions about everything – and that really works well, if you’re rich or you haven’t yet been forced down and out of middleclassdom, the evil people are the same as the good people except when they form or join power groups/mobs: they become evil. As individuals not driven by beliefs, most people are decent… not good, but decent. They’ll still go along with injustice, lying and corrupt rulers, misogyny, slavery, racism, genocide and most certainly war, just as long as these things are kept at arm’s length and can be justified with the proper layer of political correctness. As for the world becoming better… well I’m glad you can see it that way, not many do these days. Is it the end times though? That’s a trick question: it’s always been the end times for homo sapiens. The species was “created” (invented would be a more accurate term) for a specific purpose and was supposed to have terminated when its purpose was no longer required. Sadly, even for the “gods” – The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men, Gang aft agley, An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain, For promis’d joy! (Robert Burns) If we were empathetic beings and could literally feel the sorrow of this world 24/7 we would go mad and wish, though for a much different reason than the equally mad in their pulpits, for an end to it all.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

      1. Hey George! I know I’m neglecting my blog but I’ve been stretched to the limits with work! The commute is a killer although the work is good: you can do landscape work practically year round here. But next week, another week, maybe more, of renovations on a farm house. I’ve been reading, though. I like how your novel is developing. Intriguing. Nice to see you pop up here!

        Liked by 2 people

        Reply

          1. …And Jesus said, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God.” Well, that’s enough for me to refuse the offer of goodness. If I were good, I’d have to stand with God and that’s too much like joining the Repugnicans to stand at the right hand of the Great Orange Dump. But thanks anyway, I know it was well meant! 🙃

            Liked by 2 people

            Reply

    3. I really like this part, “ the evil people are the same as the good people except when they form or join power groups. Like my son says from time to time, “no one is as dumb as all of us”.
      Maybe the world is shifting to economic equilibrium? Of course there are rich, but worldwide there are vast fewer numbers living in extreme poverty. I make less than ever but by choice to live simply, so my own personal choice here probably doesn’t fit the bill.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      1. The problem is that power groups can only exist as belief systems. Start with religion and go from there. Statistically I think it is “proven” that endemic, i.e., health destroying poverty, is greatly on the rise globally. Less and less low income hard working American parents can make enough to feed their own kids, and homelessness, the ultimate cruelty in a harsh land, is becoming endemic. There is also famine in lands subject to regime change warfare (example Yemen today) driven by the filthy rich corporates who use a country’s military and security forces as well as mercenaries to spread fear and terror while stealing lands and labour.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

    1. Certainly. A hundred good deeds never see the light of day. I’ve been to many places in the world and it fascinates me as an American to see so many, doing so well and enjoying life. That’s not what I expected from my indoctrinations.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      1. …your brain washing you mean. Americans live through lives through the perspective of a 28″ x 16″ color screen, and whatever comes through that portal is reality.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

    1. I think they are mostly fine until they adapt some belief of a group. A lot of times it comes in the form of “help” as you well know.

      Like

      Reply

    2. Agreed. From the church house to the schoolhouse to the statehouse to the courthouse to the jailhouse — they infest all positions of power. And then there are the mobsters and career criminals.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

  5. Going back to your post, according to the bible, there is no end times, for “the meek shall inherit the earth.” And it further implies that religion shall end. Warmongers shall end. Bullies shall end. But the earth itself shall go on, as will those people who are good on their own–the meek.
    Believers are not meek, we atheists know that. They can all go to heaven for all we care. They will have to stay there, daily worshipping their god, because that is what he demands. Heaven is under dictatorship, after all.
    Nope, us meek shall be the only ones left, and I bet we shall be much better groundskeepers than anyone before us. We cannot help but be better.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

    1. Waaitt a minute here, Rawgod. Do you think all atheists are meek, while everyone who claims to follow Christ is arrogant or a warmonger? How can we just generalize and stereotype people in this black/white kind of way?

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      1. I think the point may be that Christianity isn’t special. Has there ever been less war because of it? Is their more political restraint by its members?
        I’m in a conversation with Joe (true and reasonable) about the Native American before Christians arrived. He stated in defense of Christianity, that I can’t blame the belief in Jesus for the atrocities committed, that if the Vikings or some other people had encountered the America’s that it would have been kinder or any different? That is the point! No, not likely it would have been any different at all, and that is actually the point. The religion is not special, nor has it produced “tidings of great joy which will be to all people” except in words alone. It’s a little like Trump telling everybody how much there going to love it, keep waving the flag and make America great again, while the other hand is business as usual.

        Liked by 3 people

        Reply

        1. Jim, I think it depends on whether the person is actually following the way of Jesus or simply is culturally conditioned to be part of the institutional church. I think the church is a mixed bag. It has done good things in the culture, but also evil.

          For myself, as a Christian believer, the most important thing for me is to speak out against abuses, but also to personally exromamine my own life. I can’t control what other people are doing, but I want in my own life not to be a hypocrite and to consistently follow the way of Jesus.

          I would not walk away from my faith based on the abuses of others. To me, this would be like being controlled by oppression.

          Of course, I would feel differently, if I became intellectually persuaded that there was no God, or that the apostolic witness of the resurrection of Jesus was false. Certainly would not want to center my deepest conviction in a fairy tale.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

          1. Christianity is a narrow view of the world in a controlled setting. You would have to discount billions of other’s perceptions, experience, and qualities of person and lives lived to proclaim Jesus did it all based on the reworks of the Bible. Why on earth would a religion withhold information, unless something sinister was in the making? It did, and it does, and the appeal to faith is a trap that was never before sprung on the human psyche. It’s a gem.

            Like

            Reply

            1. Well, I feel there is also truth proclaimed through other religions and philosophies as well. Of course, where there is conflict, not all contrary claims can be equally true either. But, I feel we should be open. I agree with you, Jim, for instance that there is alot of wisdom to be drawn from indigenous cultures. Jim, I was reared in a more progressive church as a child. So, at least to some degree our experiences of Christian faith may be very different.

              Liked by 1 person

          2. as soon as Christians agree on what the “way of Jesus” actually is, you might have a point. However, Christians have no idea what they want to believe and make up their god in their own image.

            it’s very intoxicating to make believe some magical being agrees with you and will supposedly protect you.

            Anyone watching from the outside knows this to be a fantasy.

            If you won’t walk away from your beliefs if your god doesn’t do anything to prevent these abuses, you are just ignoring the problems with your beliefs to cling to that appealing belief.

            What evidence would you accept that there is no god like you’ve defined and no evidence exists of any “apostolic witness”? I’m curious if there is really anything at all.

            Like

            Reply

            1. I think it would be very difficult for me to think there is no creator. I feel as if the fine tuning argument relating to the universe while not irrefutable seems very strong to me . If it could be proven that the resurrection of Jesus was based on a hoax, I would not be a Christian. But, of course, I wouldn’t be an atheist either. I also think I’m an innately spiritual person. I’m not naturally drawn toward atheism, to be honest.

              Liked by 1 person

            2. So, Becky, why is it that we fit the universe and it doesn’t fit us? Why is 99.99999…% inimical to human life, including most of this planet if fine tuning is true? This would indicate your god is utterly incompetent.

              Liked by 2 people

            3. Also, want to say that I think God works through us including the atheists. 😁 Whenever we speak up against injustice and work toward healing and reconciliation, IMO, we are doing the will and the work of God.

              Like

            4. No, Becky. No “god” is working through non-believers. Why? Because there is no such animal. YOU can believe whatever you want, of course, but fantasies are not the same as fact/truth.

              Liked by 1 person

            7. I’m sorry Becky but when I think, talk or do, I do the work of me and God is not taking any of the credit. In fact, he is most unwelcome in my neighbourhood. Let him attend to his favourite billionaires and violent totalitarian rulers – he’s got much in common with those. I get along well with religious people as soon as they realize and accept that I divorced from God many years ago and our differences are eternally irreconcilable. I’m not an atheist either for I know God exists – unfortunately for the worlds over which he rules.

              Liked by 1 person

            8. This just a Christian desperately making believe that her god does something. It’s always so sad to see just how greedy and selfish Christians are when they try to claim that atheists are doing their god’s will.

              Liked by 1 person

            9. I found it amazing when I talk about my daughter who I adopted. For almost 9 years? Her Christian father brutally raped her on a daily basis. Her Christian mother, aunts and uncles and even church all knew what was going on. For 9 years she told me she prayed and begged god and Jesus to stop what was happening. It was only when I, an atheist came along and put a stop to it.

              Then? Christians will turn it around and tell me their god and Jesus, used me, an atheist to do their work. REALLY? You fucking mean for 9 years god and Jesus decided no other Christian could help this girl and put a stop to what she was going through, they had to wait until an atheist came along and did it?

              Then your god truly sucks.

              Liked by 2 people

      2. Nothing at all like that. I was talking in generalities. Anyone can be meek. Believers go to heaven, so they don’t inherit. Lots (some might say most) of believers also go to hell, because they aren’t capable of following the rigid rules. But I was just using the bible to show that there is no endtimes.
        Being an atheist, this is all just conversation. I don’t believe in rewards or punishments. When it comes to the end of humanity, that can only be caused by humans or human efforts. We are destroying our world as we speak.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

      3. Damn right I do Becky. From 352AD til this current day? Christians have slaughtered millions upon millions in their forced conversion programs, starting with the Pagans. 90% of the wars were because of psychotic Christians, like the Thirty Year War where Christians decimated the region of Germany, slaughtering about 75% of the population. Matter of fact? There were not enough people left to bury the bodies after that Christian war.

        Christians murdered atheists. Anyone who did not believe in god? Christians have murdered. Christians have done all they can to pass laws to deny atheists rights. They have passed laws in certain Buybull Belt states that are a violation of the Constitution and state no atheist can run for public office. You have some Christians in Buybull belt states who demand that children be taken from atheist parents and given to Christian parents to raise.

        And you can proclaim, like most loser Christians do, about Hitler being an atheist, but that is a proven lie. He actually stated many times he was a Christian and the Nazi movement was a Positive Christian movement. Or you can state that Stalin was an atheist, but that is a lie and Stalin killed due to Communism and hated atheists and put them to death. Same with Mao, who was actually? A Buddhist. And all the others you all keep claiming that were atheists that put people to death. They did not murder because of atheist ideology, they murdered because of Communist ideology.

        Christians murdered millions because of Christian ideology. You slaughtered Pagans, putting them to death. You slaughtered Jews, putting them to death, whole cities of Jews? Christians slaughtered. On the way to the Jerusalem Crusades? Fact is? Christians murdered more Jews and even fellow Christians than they did Muslims. And Christians first blammed the Jews for the Black Death and started again? Wiping out whole towns of Jewish people. All in the name of your God and Jesus.

        Christians committed the worst act of mass genocide against my Native American ancestors. Wiping out millions of Natives in North, Central and South America under their Christian Manifest Destiny BS. Justifying their slaughter of my ancestors by saying your God and Jesus gave you these lands to subdue and conquer.

        Even more recently? Christians have committed mass genocides in Bosnia, Somolia, Uganda, Nigeria and other countries. Thanks to hateful Christian Pastors like Scott Lively, Matt Barber and others? LGBTS are being put to brutal deaths by Christians in Ugandan, Somolia and other countries. But hey, if we who support and defend the rights of LGBTS were to start demanding using your bibles, as you all do to condemn homosexuals? And start demanding that the biblical laws and rules against adultery was pushed, and all Christian adulterers be stoned to death as commanded in the bible, like they command homosexuals to be stoned to death? You Christians all would meltdown and cry how you are being persecuted, without looking at the hypocrisy of your persecutions of others.

        You Christians are no better than the Muslims, no, I take that back, you are worse.

        For almost two thousand years Christians butchered and slaughtered and persecuted people in their Christian forced conversion programs, all the while telling us, hypocritically, how theirs is a religion of love, of peace, of non-judgement. And your history of Christianity? Has proven it is anything but.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

        1. Becky is a regular contributor here and is a welcome visitor. She is polite and thoughtful as we all should be. I think you can get your point across without being an asshole. Militance will not sway any opinions. Be kind or I’ll block you

          Like

          Reply

          1. Funny Jim, you seem to defend the Christian militancy I have exposed in my comments. Seems like you who dare call yourselves Christians? Hate it when the truth is exposed about how your psychotic religion of hate and death and hypocrisy and mass murder and mass genocides and forced conversions. And then? Hate anyone with the guts and balls to expose it and stand up to you psychos.

            But again? As you Christians have sown? So shall you reap and as you Christians have done unto others? The same shall be done unto you all.

            Time for all you Christians? To reap all you have sown in your history of hate.

            Like

            Reply

            1. I’ve posted on those topics before, genocide, human sacrifice, the atrocities since Augustine. Your attacks are not helping. You are simply proving the stereotypes. Peace, and relax man. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. Did somebody offend you? You come across as espousing what you hate. Even the name of your blog suggests violence, and a truly awakened human would never do that.

              Like

            2. I am just giving back to you psycho Christians what you psycho Christians gave to my Native American ancestors, and to lgbts, and to atheists and many others. And again? Your comment only proves how much you Christians hate the truth exposed about you all, or people standing up to you all and giving back all you have sown towards others.

              It is you Christians who actually advocate violence and hate, towards atheists, towards lgbts, towards others. And you know what? We atheists? And many lgbts? And many others? Are sick and tired of you psychotic Christians and your hypocrisy and your constant spewing of lies, hypocrisy and hate.

              So hey, again? It is far past time for you Christians? To reap back all you have sown.

              Like

            3. I’m not a Christian. I think I’ve found your recipe for success. Just add a bit more vile and stir. Your not even helping yourself.

              Like

            4. Oh Jimmy, I am going to be as vile to Christians and Muslims just like they been as vile and evil to other human beings. Again? It is far past time for Christians and Muslims? To reap back all the hate, all the bigotry, all the misogyny, all the death and murder they have sown upon humanity for far too long now. Because it is the vileness and the evil of Christians and Muslims? That have brought me to this point. Where enough is enough.

              Like

            5. So I guess Jim, in your wisdom and opinion? Atheists, lgbts, Pagans, Native Americans and others? Should sthu and accept the fact that Christians and Muslims have a right to brutally murder us, to deny us our rights, etc and we should never stand up to them, or give them back what they give unto us? Nor should we defend ourselves, but just lay down like lambs to the slaughter to them huh?

              Like

            6. I think no matter what you decide to do, you should find peace through the processes of your ancestors who believed we are all connected to every thing. And no, I don’t believe you should give up, but simply work effectively. These things that upset you can give you clarity through the traditions of your elders. No wakened human has this urgency you possess, which is completely ineffective. By hating for what has been done in the past has made you as bad worse than they were. Maybe you were born too late. In your current state of mind you would have fit right in. I mean no harm, but please take a moment to reflect. Find a shaman and tell him of your anger.

              Like

            7. YOU have no clue about us Native Americans so why don’t you stop trying to think you do? YOU have no clue as to what us Native Americans face on a daily basis. NONE.

              I am very dark skinned and each freaking day? I got to deal with psychos screaming at me foaming at the mouth that I should go back to my own country. Really asshole? This was my ancestors country long before your fascist pig screwing Christian Taliban ancestors invaded this land and committed the worst act of mass genocide in human history against us.

              Or I got white supremacist ChristoTalibans telling me that we Native Americans deserved what we got.

              YOU got no clue as to the Warrior Spirit of the Aniwaya or any Native American warrior. And that is what we have become, Warriors, who are sick and fucking tired of Christians and others treating us like dogs and savages. So you assholes want to call us savages? We may as well act like it and just give back to these scumbags what they give to us, because it seems it is the only thing they understand.

              But YOU got no damn clue there Jim, none at all. I seriously doubt you could ever come close to understanding or comprehending what it is like to have millions of your ancestors wiped out by Christians who proclaimed us the savages while they proclaimed themselves the civilized ones. Or to even this day? Still be treated like a rabid dog simply because you got fucking red skin, by prejudiced, psychotic scumbag white people who dare call themselves Christians. And you could never understand this unless YOU walked it.

              Like

            8. My wife wears her traditional clothing to work every day. It is an interesting phenomenon, because it commands respect. You’re trying to assimilate and fight at the same time. Go back to your roots unless your just a mouthy coward.
              She actually gets royal treatment wherever she wears her native attire. Try it.

              Like

            9. Yeah right, keep lying. It is pure evil to claim your wife is from the Aniwaya Cherokee clan. I know most of them. So please tell me what your wifes maiden last name or her family name is so I can then go check the registry to see if she is on the list of Aniwaya Cherokees.

              Like

            11. You’re wife is no Cherokee, she is a white trash pos just like yourself. And you both? Will eventually pay for your lies to me. But bitch? You want to claim I am not a Cherokee? Why don’t you come and attempt to claim it to my face? That way? I will show you how I am an Aniwaya Cherokee through and through. Maybe I will smack you in the head with the rose quartz stone I got from Blood Mountain and Slaughter Gap?

              Liked by 1 person

            13. You got no peace to give to me loser. I would not take your forked tongue lying peace if you stuck your hand out to shake mine. I would spit on the ground in front of you, turn the back of my hand to you, wave it in your face, turn around and walk away, shaking the dust from my feet as I walked away, the ultimate insult to wasichu losers like yourself.

              Like

            14. Looks like your going to allow evolution to do its job. You don’t have a chance in hell of winning from the outside. So long

              Like

            15. They said that to Chief Red Cloud, Geronimo, Chief Sitting Bull, and many others…and we still kicked your white boi taliban terrorist asses. You all may have won the war, but you never won the battles. And even with your white supremacist scumbag ChristoTalibans doing all they could to wipe the Red Nation off the face of the earth?

              WE ARE STILL HERE.

              Like

            16. See shitstain on the underwear of humanity that you are? I have gone and spent much time in my ancestral homes. Blood Mountain and Slaughter Gap as well as that whole area? Is very sacred to us Aniwaya. And the spirit of my brave ancestors who fought and died there against the Creek? Are infused in me. I made a vow the very first time I went there that I would NEVER ALLOW another Washichu to denigrate me, defame me, or harm me. And that is my warrior vow. And this is why I am also part of the Seventh Generation Warriors of the Native Americans. So hey little Jimboy, you can run your well used outhouse piehole all you want to me. Your psychotic loser Christians on here can trash me. YOU can even claim you are an atheist, but I seriously doubt that.

              Nah, you and the rest of your mental midget morons on your blog here, your sycnchopaths? Are the true ones who will have to face the music real soon. And we Native Americans? Are loving watching your redneck towns and cities down in the Buybull Belt being destroyed, the lands of the redneck south like TexASS, Louisiana, Florida, Georgia, etc all also facing slams by Momma Earth. We love those hurricanes, those massive tornado outbreaks, those wildfires, etc destroying your white man’s homes. The only ones we are sadden by in loss are the innocent children, but hey, there is nothing we can actually do about that. I guess it must be white man’s Karma for all those innocent Native American children they raped, tortured and murdered huh? But many of us Natives are actually rejoicing, because this proves our prophecies were correct and while we may suffer at the hands of you white demons and devils? In the end? All will be made right and you suckers are going to reap back all the death and hatred, and bigotry, and misogyny and terror you white demons and devils have sown onto others thinking you all were oh so superior to them all. And once most of you white demon Christian parasites are wiped off the face of the earth by the power of Mother Nature? Then we Red Nations will rise again and go back to the beautiful ways we did live before you white scumbag shitstains on the underwear of humanity showed up.

              A superior race? Does not slaughter those they consider were lesser than they are. We proved that when we Natives saved your lives when you first invaded our lands, and then? Saved the worlds lives when we basically won WWII and the Japan theater with our Code Talkers and their unbreakble codes that won that war. Funny how we Natives save your asses and each time you still treat us like shit.

              Well hang on there sunshine because soon? You white demons and devils? Will be reaping back all you have sown. You may not believe it, but hey, the weather for the last two years? Sure proves the truths of my words.

              Liked by 1 person

            17. “ Does not slaughter those they consider were lesser than they are”. That didn’t happen that way. From nearly all the early accounts the early settlers were in awe, intimidated by the human presence and integrity of the Native American. That’s why they had to either convert you or kill you.
              Now you’ve resorted to being just like them.

              Like

            18. Stop lying Wasichu. You are a dumb ass lying white boi who cannot speak the truth if someone held a gun to your head. The Christian whites thought they were so superior to other races? They enslaved one race and tried to exterminate another. MILLIONS have died because of white supremacist Christian scumbags. And as their own book of bullshit the buybull says…AS THEY HAVE SOWN? SO SHALL THEY REAP AND AS THEY HAVE DONE UNTO OTHERS? THE SAME SHALL BE DONE UNTO THEM.

              Like

            20. Let me see if you can understand here Jim. Yeah I am one pissed off Cherokee. AGAIN, to this day? We Natives are still being fucked with. While YOU might try to understand with your blog postings? YOU truly cannot unless YOU have walked in our shoes.

              Ever since Trump? I and many other Native brothers and sisters have faced increased bigotry and prejudices because people think cause of our brown skin? We are Mexicans, whom Trump has called rapists, etc. We face this on top of all the other bullshit we got to face on a daily basis.

              Have YOU ever truly been and stayed on a reservation? Have you ever seen the horror and poverty there? The problems there? We try to do something about it and we are stopped, because this is what the whites want, drunk addicted, poverty stricken natives shutting their mouths and being too weak to fight back. Just like you described in your blog posting.

              Did you see what they did to my brother and sister Sioux during the Standing Rock shit? My brothers and sisters were peacefully protesting and then set upon by the Gestapo and beaten, water hosed, gassed and maced and thrown into jails. And? We were right. Cause that damn oil pipeline has leaked and guess what Jim? The fucking government nor the oil companies give a shit AGAIN.

              There are many, many Natives like me Jim? WHO HAVE FUCKING HAD IT. WE ARE DONE LAYING DOWN FOR THIS SHIT ANY FUCKING LONGER AND WE HAVE EVERY FUCKING RIGHT TO FEEL THIS DAMN WAY. OR DO YOU HAVE A CLUE OR AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS?

              WE NATIVES ARE FUCKING DONE WITH THIS SHIT. WE ARE DONE HAVING A WAR STILL DECLARED UPON US, BY WHITES, BY CHRISTIANS AND OTHERS, WHO ALL THEY GIVE A FUCK ABOUT IS HARMING US MORE AND MAKING MORE FUCKING PROMISES THEY WILL BREAK TO SHUT US UP.

              WELL WE ARE NOT GOING TO LAY DOWN ANY FUCKING MORE.

              Liked by 1 person

            21. Of course I am white. I am also sympathetic to your plight. One of the comments in that post was “what can we do to help?” We cannot help by helping any longer. We can only wreck it further. You need to be left alone to make your own way as a sovereign nation. Displacing 300million people ain’t going to happen though.
              I have not lived on the res, but worked there 15 years as a medic. I have seen it first hand. I have gone home after each shift. It is terrible on the Yakama. Part of the problem there is there is no one left to lead. The elders are dying with the language and no one can even take care of themselves, let alone navigate the tribe out of these muddy waters.

              Liked by 1 person

            22. That is why there are people like me out here Jim, I am one damn proud Aniwaya Cherokee. My maternal grandmother taught me the old ways at her knees. I have been to where I stated, those are very sacred and spirtual grounds for us Cherokee, if you know anything about the history of that area. I had three experiences there that brought this all upon my shoulders when I made my vows there to keep the old ways of the Aniwaya Warriors and all of the Tsagli alive. I have kept that warrior spirit for two decades now without fail and I will continue to do so. If I told you the story of what happened there? You may not believe me, but I got the evidence for it by one other person who independently wrote about it in one of the Appalachian Trail comment books at Walasi Yi Wilderness Center in Georgia as well as one very precious stone still sitting on my Warriors Shelf in my bedroom.

              But I also work with all the different Nations to keep all the spirit, tales, myths, and rituals alive. I even started working on a blog specifically for that as my contribution to keeping all the Native stories from all the Nations alive and kicking and pass them along to that the younguns will learn. I am now considered an elder, and I must do the duty of all elders. And again, there is the Seventh Generation Warriors movement that is doing this.

              And I am one strong warrior bro, I will not fail in my mission given to me by my ancestors of Blood Mountain.

              And we are not looking for you all to go back. That would be insane to do so, but it makes us laugh our asses off and in satire? When we hear some white asshole tell a brown skinned person to go back to where we come from? It is natural for us to throw that shit back into their faces. But seriously? We do wish some of your groups of inbred insane losers would go back to where their ancestors came from.

              Not all of you are bad. I have many “white friends” another satirical thing I love to throw out. Quite a few whites are woke, you seem to be and we seemed to have gotten off on the wrong foot. But I do not excuse my strong ways. We Natives who are warriors? Have found we have no longer a choice but to do what we do, for honestly? Time is short.

              One of the greatest prophecies of our Nations is after the Great Cleansing? All of us, red, white, black, brown, yellow, all people of all the nations that will be left? Will finally live as one. To respect each other and all creatures. The saddest thing I see as a Cherokee is? I learned the teachings of Jesus Christ. His greatest commandment was to love ALL your neighbors as you do your god and yourself. And that was you were to love them with all of your heart, all of your soul, all of your mind and all of your body, and on that hung all other things.

              Imagine if Christians had come upon all others they harmed, from the Pagans forward and instead of coming to them in conquest, persecution, hate and death? They came as their Lord and Savior they proclaim to follow told them to do so? Imagine what a beautiful world it actually could have been? Instead of the complete and total horror it turned out to be? And it truly? Did not have to be this way. Sad isn’t it?

              Liked by 1 person

            23. It didn’t have to be this way. Part of the Christian problem is you are supposed to love god first, then love your neighbor as yourself.
              Here’s the problem. Someone else gets to direct the congregation on what it means to love god, then the rest follow. Loving your neighbor as yourself is really an indictment on how Christians must feel about themselves. The religion then teaches they are nothing without god, and how many “savages” were killed because they knew not god? Better to die and let god do what he will then to continue living as a heathen. Either way, your not fit for the kingdom. It’s a conundrum, but the real issue appears to be faith. The appeal to faith without intellect has cursed humanity over 2000 years.
              I happy we could iron a few things out. Welcome aboard. I think you’ll find most people here, even Becky, agreeing with you on many points and can lend friendship if nothing else.

              Liked by 2 people

            24. I think that for Christians, Jews and Muslims, the greatest problem is equating loving “God” with loving one’s neighbour – in the classic style of the parable of the good Samaritan – in that time the Samaritans were considered the ultimate ungodly idolaters. You see, an open minded perusal of the bible describes God’s character as that of an absolute psychopath. There is no escaping that conclusion except through faith, i.e., denial. So if a believer is to love “God” it will mean identifying with that character. With man’s penchant for violence, it is then natural to seek out those aspects of deity that justifies hating those not of your particular belief community, group or mob; those who indulge in things you would love to indulge in yourself but are inhibited by your self-imposed fake morality. So you add your jealousy of your neighbour’s freedom to your hatred and have at it.

              It is claimed by some Christians that Jesus was of a different ilk and “changed” the law as instituted by Moses. They call it fulfilling. But in actual fact Jesus always deferred to “the Father” as in “I and the Father are one” famous quote. Since God by definition cannot change his mind and can never be wrong, the “Law” stands, fulfilled or not. The way around that was to claim that the “Law” still applied to all those who did not have, or accept, Jesus as lord and saviour. So now massacring non-believers is doing the will of God since that was the “Law’s” modus operandi. According to that “Law” there are many benefits to these massacres. First you get to have fun, raping , slaughtering and plundering. Then you get to claim the now vacant homes and lands and their attendant riches for yourself and your cronies. This is all legitimate in the eyes of the “Law” or God. It’s all pure hypocrisy of course, but how convenient. How very predatory capitalistic. In the final analysis Christianity and imperialistic predatory capitalism are one and the same religion, always have been, always will be. One cannot exist without the other.

              Liked by 1 person

            25. “ If I told you the story of what happened there? You may not believe me”. I would actually love to hear it. And yes, I would believe you. Do you have a post or link to it? If not I’d be happy to have it here.

              Like

            26. You should be a proud Elder/Warrior. I agree with your comment. I’m from Europe but of a people that was conquered long ago (1300’s) by the French and is barely a people anymore, as we were legally denied our language, traditional dress and schools. I do not speak my native tongue as my parents were ashamed of it – they were “good” Catholics and chose the dictates of the church and the state over their ancestry and traditions. By all means, don’t let that happen to your people. The hole it creates can never be filled. Tell them that.

              Liked by 1 person

            27. How would you feel Jim? If someone from an oil company put a leaking pipeline in your backyard, or through your house? And you could not do a fucking thing about it? Because that oil company has the government on their side? Or how would you feel Jim, if some fucking sports team said where your ancestors, where your mothers and fathers, where your grandfather and grandmother was not as important as their ripping them out of their final resting places to build a fucking football stadium there? Or how would you feel if you were an aunt or uncle to a native child whose parents died in a car crash and you were banned from getting custody of that child and it automatically went to a white person who were Christian to raise? How would you feel about any of this? And would you not think that the people this happens to on a daily basis would have a fucking right to be pissed off about it? Or should it only be whites and Christians who should display pissed off anger when they say they are being fucked with?

              Like

            28. I have actually seen this happen in foster care. We raised two naive girls for about 3 years against the will of the tribe and even the grandparents. Wasn’t our choice, I was just happy at least they were with us who embraced their traditions.
              It boggles my mind how there is even one Native American Christian. They really did a number on your people. It’s the same in Latin America where the natives celebrate the Spanish language and Catholicism. What choice do they have? Their culture and history was erased.

              Liked by 1 person

            29. Most of the elders who are Christian? Are not Christian by choice. Many are either from the old Christian Industrial Schools. Or are children of them. And the horror they went through? The forced brain washing? The rapes, the tortures, the beatings? I do not know if you have ever read about these houses of pure horror or what the children sent to these literal death camps went through. I have read them in my research for my book. In the First Nation Industrial Schools in Canada ran by the RCC? Over 30,000 First Nation children died. In the ones in the US ran by the Protestants? The death toll is higher but no one truly knows the actual count.

              The moment they were brought into these places, literally kidnapped from their homes by the government troops or Christians? All traces of their Native heritage was sought to be erased. The boys had to have their hair cut, a great insult, they had every thing taken from them. They were beaten if they spoke in their languages. Before they could even eat? They had to pick a Christian name from a book. This is what made them “Christian” and this happened to many generations of Native children. And? What can you truly do to over come this form of terroristic, severe brainwashing?

              The stories I have in my head and in my heart from reading all the documents on this? Would give you nightmares. They give them to me. And I researched all what the RCC did in all their places. I even was almost sent to prison for standing up to them scumbags. They did everything they could to put me down, but I am still standing and in their fantasy land? They actually believe I have some kind of strong guardian angel protecting me and have stopped messing with me. Man this is no bullshit, I have gotten into the face of the pope, Cardinals, Bishops and Archbishops without one ounce or shred of fear. I got into the face of Bill Pig Face Donohue and can proudly say I won and not many people can say that shit.

              Going back to those Natives who are Christian? Many of us Natives are working with them, doing our best to bring them back to the old ways. This is also the reason for the Seventh Generation Warriors, to bring back the old ways to all the Red Nations, to re-awaken the old Dances, the old Pow Wows, etc, the respect for Mother, etc. But you know the Christians. Oh no, do not go back to those savage ways of being against the true god, you will go to hell. Hell is very terrifying tool to use to brain wash people. The Catholics invented it, and used it to effective means of terrorizing people. Same with us Natives. And Africans, and anyone else.

              While some religious brainwashing is easier to overcome? Like you and I appeared to have overcome? When you suffer generations of your family being brainwashed through sheer and utter horror and terror? It is hard to overcome. YOU either aquiece? Or you die a slow, painful, brutal death.

              Liked by 2 people

            31. That is especially true of Christian home children. What alternatives are they shown? What choices given? They are surrounded and brainwashed be endless propaganda and blatantly FALSE biblical interpretations. …speaking from experience, born in a Catholic home and isolationist/exceptional/exclusive Catholic villages.

              Liked by 2 people

            32. Ask all your Christian friends here Jim, how they would feel if the United States government told them that if they practiced certain aspects of their religion they would be put to death for it. Or that the rest of your practices that would not give you a death penalty punishment? Was going to give you a long prison sentence. This is what was done to us Native Americans up until 1974 when Congress finally gave us our rights back to practice our spiritual ways and beliefs. Funny how it was Christians who denied these rights to us Native Americans, but if you were to have us Native Americans say that a law should be passed that would give a death penalty punishment to Christians for certain practices and put them in prison for all the others? They would have a meltdown. But hey, us Natives? Should just turn the other cheek and suck it up and deal with it and not be so pissed off or speak out against this shit huh?

              Cause then again when we do this? That makes us the violent savages.

              Liked by 1 person

            33. Christian majority is the first to cry foul that they’re being oppressed. It comical, really. Can’t even question their beliefs.

              Like

            34. Oh I damn well question them. And I call them out. People hate my style of atheism. I believe? As these ChristoTalbians sow? So should they reap and as they do unto others? Then the same should be done against them. And this is what I mean.

              I am also a martial artist and a man of peace. But there comes a time that when you truly got to stand up to the bullies etc. Now I first call them out. This is what has actually gotten me as one of the most jailed person on Facebook and gotten me banned from Twitter three times. I pull no freaking punches when standing up to the haters and violent punks who seem to want to rule the roost and I believe in throwing back into their faces what they put forth.

              I am not calling for violence though except for on these conditions
              1. YOU got every freaking right, if you are an atheist, a lgbt, or other, under attack by a religious psycho, of defending yourself, including taking their life if they seek to take yours. That is self defense in my book if some psycho comes at you, or a group of psychos come at you with intent to harm you, or a loved one, or even an innocent person and you are walking down the street witnessing the attack, to defend yourself, your loved ones or that innocent person from a religious psycho of what ever religion, seeking to do you, or them harm, or take yours or their lives.

              2. YOU do not start violent actions. I am not calling for a Civil War against these freaks, but if they should start one over their Fascist ChristoTaliban or even MuslimTaliban crap? YOU got every right to put them down like the rabid dogs they are. I am not saying you go after the innocent Christians or Muslims, but I treat ChristoFascists just like I treat MuslimFascists.

              Liked by 1 person

            35. That’s ok. I’m not a martial artist but am a skilled in the axe and the bow. Throwing the axe is my favorite by a long. shot. I think I could actually kill a bear I throw it so hard.

              Liked by 1 person

            40. Maybe after 14 years of my work exposing over one hundred thousand Christian pedophiles, or my 12 years of work exposing all your psychotic ChristoTaliban pastors of hate, or all the years I have spent exposing all the Crimes Against Humanity perpetrated by you who called yourselves Christians have made me this way?

              Maybe after my working with thousands of victims of psychotic Christians in the last 12 years? Have shown to me the truth of Christianity and Christians and it has made me sick, and pissed? And I got every right to be this way?

              Or? Try being denied custody of your youngest son cause some sick and twisted Christian judge and child management worker decided because I had been brutally gang raped by three priests when I was 15? Meant I was going to rape my own son, despite all the evidence against such notions. Or being denied custody of your oldest son because hey, you are an atheist and unless and until you become a Christian you will never be allowed near your son, thanks to another psychotic Christian judge. And I could go on, like all the hate thrown at me by Christians for exposing their pedophiles and standing up to them. Or all the death threats, threats of violence I get from Christians for exposing their Christian pedophiles and their Christian pastors of hate?

              But hey, you couldn’t walk a tenth of a mile in my shoes due to all the horror, pain and suffering I have had to go through at the hands and dicks of evil freaking Christians now could ya?

              And? It is far past time for all us atheists, and lgbts, and Pagans and all others that you Christians have harmed and love to persecute? Start getting off our asses and start persecuting Christians like they persecute us. And you Christians hate reaping what you have sown and having done unto you as you all done unto others? But you all deserve it.

              See what someone constantly exposed to Christian hypocrisy, Christian hate and violence and evil becomes?

              Like

            41. Maybe you’re on the wrong blog for that. If revenge is what you want, seek enlightenment. A vision quest or a counselor. If you have a local shaman maybe he/she can help. You carry a lot of hate and in the end you will not rest. If you truly are Native American you don’t know your roots, only what’s been done to you. Make yourself a medicine wheel and find a quiet place to reconnect. Peace and good lucky you.

              Like

            42. We Native Americans turned the other cheek to Christians Jim and what did that get us? Slaughtered, brutalized, placed in death camps after 1,000 mile forced death marches in the middle of winter. Millions upon Million of us wiped out by Christians. And you think we Natives should forget what they did to us? To again, turn the other cheek to them, when they are still messing with us?

              Gee Jim, here is an example for you to ponder on. How about if we Native Americans tore up Arlington National Cemetary and built a Casino there? Because fucking white Christian assholes sure do not care about our sacred burial grounds. They are building a new NFL stadium in Ohio over a burial mound and do not care. Two White Christian senators from Arizona stole thousands of acres of Navaho and Apache burial grounds to be dug up by a foreign company’s mining group.

              Our Children are still being stolen by the Christians and forced to live with Christian families over their own Native families who want to adopt them but cannot because of this stupid freaking illegal Christian law.

              So how about it JIM? Maybe you ought to go look up the Seventh Generation Warriors, who are just like me there Jim. A Native American who is sick and tired of the evil brought upon us to this day by White Supremacist Christians. Oh and you got no damn clue there Jim. As an Aniwaya Cherokee? Which means the Wolf Clan? We were the protectors of our people, and I will gladly lay down my life for my brother and sisters of the Red Nations to fight the evil Wasichu Christians who continue to bring us harm, death and destruction.

              Funny though how you do not seem to care that Christians committed the worst case of mass genocide against us Natives in human history and then you got the guts and balls to try to tell this Native I should not be pissed? Go fuck yourself there Jim. And we Natives warned you white scum that you all would receive back what you sowed upon us, and right now? That is exactly what is happening. And I? Love reading all the stories of white people being wiped out by Mother Earth because they are so stupid to think they could pollute the air, water and earth and destroy things because they thought they were oh so superior to all life on this earth and were not going to suffer any consequences for their actions. But you whites sure are justly suffering it now and will be wiped off the face of the earth by one much more powerful than any of your civilizations, or your psychotic religious beliefs of a god, and that? Is Mother Earth and Karma, for as you white Christians have sown? So shall you reap. And YOU may not be a Christian as you proclaim, but your defense of them? Is sickening and proves otherwise.

              Like

            43. Relax man. Part of my wife’s heritage is of your Aniwaya Cherokee people. They fled and went to Tennessee into hiding.
              No, they will not reap what they have sewn. After 14 years of you working mad at the world, yet until yesterday I’d never heard of you or your work. It is ineffective. Keep doing the same thing, you won’t get the results you’re looking for.

              Like

            44. Dont lie to me and try to tell me your wife is Aniwaya Cherokee. I seriously doubt that is the truth. Rather convinenent too that you should chose to pick the very same clan I belong to, to claim your wife is from the same clan. Gee, what are the odds on that?

              Oh and yes, the Christians and white man? Will reap back all you have sown. And the weather and all the disasters happening from the weather and global warming? Are proving it.

              Like

            45. I don’t lie. I have no motive to. If you want to take the time to search the Cherokee genealogy archives her family is there. Of course you’ve proven you cannot be trusted by your angry accusations

              Like

          2. Blocking me? Only proves the truth of my words there Jimmy. Truths you Christians do not like, or cannot handle. But as I have said there Jim, it is far past time for all you Christians? To reap all you have sown. The millions upon millions upon millions of innocent victims, put to brutal deaths by Christians? Deserve justice. And they will get it.

            Like

            Reply

            1. Blocking you only proves your an intolerable arse promoting violence. I can let the other readers decide. I would be surprised if any atheist here would support your demeanor and style of attack.
              I won’t block you because you’re wrong, but because you are a hateful ass. No truly awakened human would treat another with such bull.

              Like

            2. Go fuck yourself Jim. Just go fuck yourself. Block me all you wish to. I will continue to demand that all atheists, all lgbts, all Pagans and all Native Americans give back 1,000 fold to Christians what Christians have given unto us. And I do not care if you? Or any Christian hates what I say. It is about time someone like me came along and spoke what has to be spoken.

              It is Christians and Muslims who have created all this hate, all this bigotry all this misogyny, all this violence and death due to their psychotic religious beliefs and have murdered and slaughtered millions in the name of their religious crap. But hey, we are not supposed to demand they pay for their Crimes Against Humanity because hey, that would be violent of us to do so.

              This is like how the psychos supporting and defending Traitor Trump and his Fascism screams how us of Anti-Fa are the evil ones lmfao.

              Like

      4. Oh so it is ok for you Christians to generalize and sterotype atheists, Native Americans, lgbts, etc but no one should EVER judge, or generalize, or stereotype Christians huh? Again, proving how much Christians hating reaping back what they have sown, and having done unto them as they do unto others.

        Yeah you psycho self-righteous Christians judge and stereotype and generalize about us Atheists on a daily basis. How we cannot have no morals because we do not believe in your bullshit religion or god, or how we have no souls, are pure evil, blah, blah, blah, or how we are all actually Satanists, etc? When in truth and history? It is you Christians who are the pure evil ones, who have no souls, for all the evil you Christians have committed in the name of your God, the name of your Jesus, the name of Christianity and your buybulls? Far prove it. You Christians have the innocent blood of millions upon millions of victims on your hands and heads. And that is a fact and truth YOU Christians cannot accept.

        How about if Atheists really did start acting like you Christians? Demanding all adulterers, especially? Christian adulterers be put to death according to the laws and rules of Leviticus and Deuteronomy? You know, the same Leviticus and Deuteronomy books of the bible that Christians use to demand the death penalty for homosexuals? Because actually? Your bible condemns adulterers a thousand times more than it does homosexuals, and it does in fact? Give it a death penalty punishment. So again, how about we all start demanding that all adulterers be put to death for their adultery, like Christians demand homosexuals be put to death?

        Lots of Christians scream for the death penalty and denial of all rights for us atheists. How about we start doing the same for you Christians? How about we demand that Christians have their children taken away? Or have no right to run for office? You know, as you Christians sow? So shall you reap and as you have all done unto Atheists, LGBTS, Native Americans, Jews, Africans and many others? So should you all have done unto you. Just like it says in your New Testament huh?

        Like

        Reply

          1. Time to stop hating on us atheists. Christians cry about how they are hated by people. Well to me? That is Christians reaping back what they have sown and having done unto them as they do unto others. And of course? Christians hate that when it happens to them.
            One thing that gets me about Christians is how they cry well we were persecuted too. Yes, for about 300 yrs your early Christians were persecuted. But then? Once Christians gained their power? They persecuted everyone. Instead of turning the other cheek? They did the opposite.
            Christians cry they are persecuted, especially in the US, if we demand they abide by the separation of church and state laws. They lie constantly, telling us, that this country was founded on their religion, yet if you actually read the words of Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Monroe, Washington, Howe and all the others? That lie would be busted big time.
            Let’s take Christmas for instance. It is supposedly a War on Christmas when we do not say Merry Christmas to someone. Or if a company like Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts do not put Merry Christmas on their holiday cups. We have Christian manger scenes, Christmas carols blasting, Christmas parades, etc. Where exactly is this damn war on Christmas we keep hearing oh so much about? Hell, the day after Halloween? All the damn Christmas decorations and Christmas music starts. But if an atheist, or a Pagan, or even a Muslim objects to this shit? Why the Christians scream War on Christmas. But hey, most Christians practicing these Christmas rituals? Are all basically in the Closet Practicing Pagans.
            Or when we do all we can to stop Christians from forcing their religious bullshit beliefs into our public schools. Forcing creationism into our science classes. Forcing abstinence only sex education in our public schools instead of real sex education. Or no bible classes and prayers lead in our public schools. Christians have a meltdown over this saying that this is again? A War on Christians and a persecution of them. Why is it in their Christian hypocrisy they will demand that Muslim religious beliefs, or Pagan religious beliefs, or atheism be taught in our public schools, saying that is all evil, but have no damn problem being ChristoTalibans themselves, forcing their religion into our public schools and that is ok with them.

            Time for Christians to wake the hell up and do something about this. If you proclaim yourself a True Christian? then it is YOU who are supposed to be fighting and standing up to all these Fake Christians, as you call them. Instead? You all leave it up to us, who are in fact? Persecuted by them, us atheists, who are so fucking hated by you Christians and other theists, or lgbts who are so fucking hated and persecuted by Christians, Muslims and others. What the hell right to Christians and Muslims have in persecuting others based on their religious beliefs? Why are those they are persecuting the evil ones, the hateful ones, the vile ones, when they are standing up to these bloody, brutal, deadly persecutions of them by Christians and Muslims and other religious believers?

            Again, I ask Christians, how would you all truly feel, if we atheists, or if lgbts, or if Pagans, did unto you all as you all have done unto them? I already know that answer. But I sure wish Christians and others like the Muslims would wake the fuck up and stop proclaiming us the enemy, the Satanic ones, when we do stand up to their psycho extremists who want to put us to brutal deaths simply because we happen to be atheists, or you are an lgbt, or a Pagan.

            I wonder how Muslims would feel if LGBTS or Atheists had death penalty punishments for Muslims like 13 Muslim countries have death penalty punishments for lgbts and atheists?

            Or how would Christians feel if LGBTS and Atheists demanded death penalty punishments for them?

            Like

            Reply

    1. Some say thank god. Aren’t these conveniences and particularly medical advances revealed by god? But, according to the best evidence though, god was the founder of epidemiology some 3billion years ago.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      1. Satan? The scapegoat invented by Christians, taking three Pagan gods, Pan, Cerennunous and Prometheus, changing their stories and turning them into the demon and devils of the Christian religion. One only has to look at the depictions and descriptions of the Pagan gods Pan and Cerrenunous and compare them with the depiction and descriptions of the Christian Satan to see this. As the saying goes, the gods and goddesses of the old religion becomes the demons and devils of the new religions.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

  9. Re “Where on earth are all the evil people?”

    Did you look in the pews? According to those people, Jesus’s word means very little, so I have to believe they are being controlled by Satan. The bible says that Satan is so powerful that he can hide things from God (so much for being all-knowing). So, Satan’s secret plan is to take control of all of the Christians and have them do his will. The Christians have this veneer of respectability, so no one will find out about his plan until it is too late. Part of this plan, apparently, is to get Christians to support the Stage 1 Anti-Christ, Donald Trump. Further degradations will occur, build momentum, and eventually topple God himself.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

  10. “I have traveled around this great county to all but one of the fifty states. Good people outnumber bad 100 to 1—no, I dare say 1000 to 1. Rarely ever have I crossed paths with a human that wasn’t just awesome in one way or another. It’s the best of times, but you’ll never hear that from the pulpits or the news selling fear. The Bible prophecies and the preachers are at complete odds with the way the world is trending.”

    That is interesting because I hear from many pulpits how great our country is. Our Country’s morals were founded on Christianity and I think its pretty good here as well. Of course there are bad people, too. I keep hearing how terrible we are from the political left. Maybe we are both being selective in our hearing.

    Like

    Reply

    1. what I think you hear is the psychotic nonsense from Christians who want to claim how great the US is and then they call how horrible it is in the same breath.

      It is a lie, however, that US morals were from Christianity. That is the false attempt to claim that only Christians are humane people when the bible and Christians show that isn’t the case at all. That you feel the need to lie like this, Joe, shows that Christianity isn’t the font of wonderfulness that Christians try to claim.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      1. CS
        I am not claiming the US is horrible that seems to be the political left that is doing that.

        It is no lie that our moral views in the US were shaped by Christianity.

        But there may be some lying to yourself when you try to tell yourself you don’t believe in morality yet try to claim Christianity is immoral. That is seems to be your own sort of nonesense.

        Like

        Reply

        1. It is a lie that our moral views in the US were shaped by Christianity. If they had been we would have been just looking at the bible laws. Happily, we don’t follow them. We follow English common law in large part, which was put in place before Christianity came to those islands.

          However, we aren’t. We don’t have the requirement to stone adulterers, and children who disobey their parents. We don’t have a requirement to unquestioningly obey a ruler since, per the bible, all leaders were put in place by this god. We shook off the nonsense that women were second class citizens per the bible, and now women can vote, testify etc entirely not what the bible commands. We shook off the bible slave laws and now we don’t have slavery like the bible approves of.

          Christians like you try to spread the lie that only Christians are good and only Christianity had the “right” laws. That is not the case. The laws we do follow were already in place in Babylon, etc. Christianity came up with nothing new.

          I do believe in morality, a lovely subjective morality that changes for the better, unlike the ignorance and bigotry in the bible. As I’ve stated above, we got rid of bibilcal nonsense like slavery, that women had to obey men, that there has to be a tithe to the church, that rulers have to be unquestioningly followed, etc.

          And poor Joe, he forgets his orange messiah who says that american has to be made great “again”, which says it isn’t now. Darn, how dare I show you reality. 🙂

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

          1. “It is a lie that our moral views in the US were shaped by Christianity. If they had been we would have been just looking at the bible laws.”

            You make it sound like Jesus always agreed with the Pharisees so you clearly do not understand Christianity.
            https://trueandreasonable.co/2019/11/12/anti-theists-and-pharisees-can-interpret-the-old-testament-the-way-they-want-i-will-interpret-it-the-way-god-wants/

            “We don’t have the requirement to stone adulterers, and children who disobey their parents.”
            Joh 8:1-11
            https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A1-11&version=NLT

            “I do believe in morality, a lovely subjective morality that changes for the better…”

            Subjective in that whatever you think is moral is moral? Or is it a group? And does it change when you or that group changes its mind? If so then by definition it will always change for “the better” when “the better” is defined by whatever you or that group decides. the group decides slavery is fine so by definition it is fine. Then the Group changes its mind and slavery is no longer fine so by definition it is no longer fine. Yay! change for the better. But then slavery comes back into fashion with the group so by definition slavery is fine again. Another Change for the better because whatever the group says is good is good! That is why you need something objective or your view of morality is just babble.

            No I don’t think Trump is the messiah. But I do appreciate your humor. 🙂

            America has been pretty great for a long time as it was founded on great ideals including that we were endowed by a creator by inalienable rights. The rights don’t come from the state so the state is wrong to take them away. Some atheists simply say all rights from the state so they can take them away- this was sort of the French approach. But I think certain atheists are realizing that they want to found certain rights on something beyond the state. Douglas Murray is one such atheist. And although I do not think it will work I do applaud him for at least recognizing the problem.

            and really whats with the “liar liar liar” bit? I thought we were friends 🙂

            Like

            Reply

            1. Slavery is instituted in the Bible by Yahweh. Debt slavery, indentured servitude, serfdom, and chattel slavery are all found in the Bible. Say otherwise, and you are against the commands of Yahweh. You are not the first to use slavery as an example, but I don’t know why people keep using that one. You can’t claim that “all that changed” with Jesus, either. Your pretense is that it is “objective” and “unchanging”. Was Yahweh wrong, did his rules need to be revised? Whether or not Jesus said the Torah laws apply or not is really a side issue that distracts too many people. The real problem is that these rules would need to be changed or done away with, if they were God-given and perfect. Especially if Yahweh never changes his mind or develops new views on things.

              Jesus speaking up for the woman caught in adultery is an example of a straw man, as I see it. The “Pharisees and scribes” are set up arbitrarily as the bad guys in this story, as they always are in the New Testament. Tell me exactly what they were doing wrong. Yahweh stated in his own rules that adulterers are to be stoned to death. The woman was caught red-handed, and no one in the story disputes that. In executing her, they were only doing what the god demanded. Jesus had no real ground to criticize them on. Nowhere was it ever required that those who punished a lawbreaker be without sin. That is Christians adding the “commandments of men” to the “word of god”. The Bible has the “a house divided cannot stand” saying from Jesus. Apparently a house divided can stand, Yahweh can say one thing and Jesus can say the opposite. When Moses had Yahweh around to consult regarding a man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath, what did Yahweh answer? That the sabbath was made for man, not the other way around? That mercy and forgiveness ought to be applied? No, he commanded Moses to make an example of the man and stone him to death. The Bible does not say that this was “the interpretation” of someone regarding Yahweh or his rules. It says “thus saith the LORD”.

              And rape, another issue that I see Christians bring up. Rape is not a serious issue in the Bible. It merits a payment of a bride-price, not a hard punishment. Except in cases where the woman is betrothed or married, then it is a death penalty for spoiling some other man’s property. And in some cases, the woman raped is also to be executed. And that is about it. Marital rape was not an issue, and slaves and captives didn’t even count when it came to the issue of rape. The Bible is clear that you can sell your daughter to be someone’s slave concubine(no input from said daughter asked), or keep captured women as concubines(or sex-slaves).

              Murder is a very specific act in the Old Testament. Moses was a murderer, I don’t recall anyone being bothered by that. Anyway, murder was the killing of someone with a certain legal status, intentionally, with no mitigating circumstances. It never applied to everyone in some universal sense. That is why the command not to murder is perfectly consistent with all the killing ordered in the Old Testament. Sacrifice of captives or slaves, revenge killing(in some cases), defense of property, killing in warfare, killing religious enemies, legal execution of an offender, and indirectly causing the death of a slave via punishment were not considered murder. The Hebrews that you revere as the source of your objective morality also practiced human sacrifice to their god Yahweh, at one time. It is right there in the Old Testament. And yes, these types of sacrifices are approved of and even commanded in the text.

              Theft was a crime in the context of stealing from someone within the religious fold who had legal standing. Fellow Hebrews and resident aliens. The Hebrews were told to rob the Egyptians on their way out, that was never said to be stealing. They took all the valuables in the places they conquered, this was not stealing either. David raided other tribes for livestock and goods, and killed all possible witnesses, and yet this was never called theft or murder. The Bible says that if an animal dies on its own, Jews are not to eat it. But they can sell the meat to foreigners. This is never called unfair or duplicitous. Jacob deceived his brother and his father to steal the rights of the heir, and yet this is never called fraud or theft.

              None of what I listed was anything far removed from Christian practice. Most Christians, Catholics and the later Protestants, based their legal systems on the Bible to some degree. Where they differed, it was because local customs edged out the Biblical laws promoted by the churches. Rape victims had to marry their rapists under Christian legal systems. Heretics and unbelievers were killed, just as the Bible commands. Slavery of various sorts was perfectly fine, even the churches had slaves. Divorce was very hard to obtain, often it was practically impossible. Adulterers were often executed, though this one had spotty enforcement. People considered to have been born illegitimately(usually out of wedlock) were barred from priesthood and most church positions, and carried a stigma because of the Biblical law cursing bastards to the 10th generation. Lepers were banished outside of normal society, after one last ceremony. The mentally ill were considered demon possessed. The physically ill were often told that they had to deserve their affliction, as it was the result of sin. Beating children was considered meritorious and necessary, because the Bible says so. People were regularly tortured and killed for being accused as witches. There was no concept of a freedom of belief or opinion, you believed what you were told or else, just as the Bible commands. This has only changed since the 18th century or so, more recently in other cases.

              Modern American morality is one set of mores in history. There is nothing special about them. That set of mores is more a product of the Enlightenment than of traditional Christianity. Common moral views are quite different now than they were 200 years ago. They will shift and change, just as other sets of mores did. Some basic rules hold in almost all human societies because they are useful, but many others differ.

              Liked by 4 people

            2. Christ summarized the law and the prophets. I think I will stick to his interpretation rather than yours.

              Like

            4. “Do you include Christ’s endorsement of the OT?”

              Yes
              I did a whole blog on what appears to be one of the top 3 verses quoted by anti-Christians out of the new testament. Matthew 5:17-20

              That is part of Christ’s introduction in the sermon on the mount. Christ himself gave a very lengthy (3 chapters) explanation of exactly how his statement should be interpreted.

              I am going to interpret what Christ said just as Christ told us we should understand him when he said those words. You can pluck that out of context and interpret it however you want. But don’t be surprised if Christians stick with God’s interpretation instead of yours.

              https://trueandreasonable.co/2019/10/09/christs-moral-direction-versus-moral-rules-approach-surpassing-every-jot/

              Liked by 1 person

            7. Again, Joe, funny how we don’t follow the laws given by your supposed god, so nope, Christianity isn’t the source of US law. And your sad link has more lies on it too. Just so you know, I’m not friends with people who lie, especially people who claim they are Christian and lie, ignoring the few decent things in the bible. I do enjoy that you throw your god under the bus as long as it is convenient for you.

              Jesus said that *all* of his father’s laws were to be followed until the earth and heavens pass away. They’re still here, in case you hadn’t noticed. It’s also so cute when a Christian declares that he and he alone can interpret the bible as his god wants. All of you do this, and not one of you can show that they are even a Christian as defined by the bible, so I’m not terribly impressed. It’s also great that you are so ignorant about your bible and don’t know that the adulteress story was added long after the gospel was written. How unfortunate for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery
              So, Mathew 5 still stands. “17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish (to completely do away with ) the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.”
              20 “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!” – Matthew 5 NLT
              Poor Joe, it’s a shame you can’t grasp that morality is subjective. Christians have been changing their minds on what morals their god wants for thousands of years. You all want your god to agree your particular hates and desires, and you al end up contradicting each other with your “interpretations”. Yep, subjective morals can go backward, but they don’t often do that. What we have from your bible is the morals of ignorant agrarians who needed their god to approve of slavery, genocide, women as property, killing children for the actions of their parents, etc.

              What most Christians have is a morality of might equals right, that *anything* their god does is okay because it is their god, not because the action itself is objectively good or bad. So, Joe, you don’t have objective morality either, though you certainly wish someone believed that your god agrees with you.
              The founding fathers did say that their creator gave inalienable rights, and surprise, those rights aren’t supported in the bible at all. Life can be taken by this petty god whenever it wants. Liberty isnt’ supported since your god loves slavery and goes to the point of telling people (if one believes the bible) to never seek freedom, even from a cruel owner. The pursuit of happiness, well, that’s not supported since this god, and those who claim to speak for it, can’t agree on what they’ll allow and what happiness is. It wasn’t your god they were talking about, Joe. So, you fail on all counts….again.
              Some atheist might say that all rights come from the state. I don’t. We don’t need your god to “found” anything on since your god doesn’t exist, just like every other god. We just need to accept the value of humanity, no god needed at all. It’s Christians who prate about humans being evil and “dirty rags” etc, denigrating humanity in their need to try to make people think they need a god.

              No idea who Douglas Murray is. Let’s see, a conservative and an atheistwhich goes to prove that atheism isn’t anything more than a conclusion that there is no god. Poor thing, he still has to be afraid of the same things conservative Christians are and clings to those baseless hatreds that come from a god that he claims he doesn’t believe in. Ah, but like all Christians, Murray picks and chooses what he wants the bible to really say and invents his own Christianity. His god is okay with him being gay. Tsk.

              He is terrified of anyone not like him and supports wannabee Nazis so that’s kind of sad. It is pretty silly to see some nonsense like “Christian Atheism”.

              Liked by 1 person

            8. CS
              Lots of people think all sorts of things in the bible are not historical. They are still part of our scripture. And the adulteress is just one of many places in Gospels where Jesus does not follow a literalistic reading of the law.

              You claim you have read the whole bible but you seem to understand this. Again here is a blog where I spell it out with actual quotes from scripture instead of your bad summaries:

              https://trueandreasonable.co/2019/11/12/anti-theists-and-pharisees-can-interpret-the-old-testament-the-way-they-want-i-will-interpret-it-the-way-god-wants/

              Here is another blog where I actually go through quotes in scripture and quote Jesus in context when he explains what exactly he means:
              https://trueandreasonable.co/2019/10/09/christs-moral-direction-versus-moral-rules-approach-surpassing-every-jot/

              “The founding fathers did say that their creator gave inalienable rights,…”

              I am glad you understand something about the founding fathers.

              “Some atheist might say that all rights come from the state. I don’t.”

              Where do they come from?

              Like

            10. No they are not self evident. If it were self evident that humans were “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights….” you wouldn’t be arguing against it. If it was self evident that all men were created equal Jefferson wouldn’t own slaves.

              And slavery wouldn’t have been a fact of the world for the vast majority of its history. Aristotle was used by the humanist scholar Juan Ginés de Sepúlveda, against Bishop Bartolomé de las Casas at the Valladolid debate about whether the Native Americans were indeed equal.

              We, of course, see people are unequal in all sorts of traits and abilities. So the notion that we are all equal is, not only not self evident, it seems contrary to empirical evidence.

              Do you think we have liberty or do you think we are determined to act a certain way?

              You can pick and choose what you think is self evident and I can claim the same. But we know none of this is self evident. These beliefs are, however, moral ideals of the founders. Sadly they did not always live up to them but as a country that shared a judeo Christian morality we did continue to get closer to them.

              Once we say those moral ideals are just make believe then it is unclear why would continue to strive for them. Do you think we just create moral ideals?

              Like

            12. Now you are talking about what is “unfair.” I thought we were talking about specific (or at least slightly more specific) claims in the declaration of independence.

              Like

            13. You act like it’s a mystery. It is not a mystery to the individual. I simply replied to you question. Sorry it’s not helping your preconceived belief.

              Liked by 1 person

            14. “You act like it’s a mystery.”

              I act like what is a mystery? You keep changing what we are discussing. First we were talking about the declaration of independence then you were talking about “unfairness.”

              You don’t think morality is part of objective reality do you? You think we make it up. The problem for you is that you want to say it is not just make believe that Christians acted in morally bad ways. This is the contradiction that many atheists try to live with.

              Liked by 1 person

            15. No it’s not self evident “ that humans were “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”, but merely self evident that each individual knows they have obvious, inalienable rights. The creator part is the one that needs explainers.

              Liked by 2 people

            16. What can’t Christians get through their thick skulls that this country was NOT founded on their religion?

              Thomas Jefferson starts out with his Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, where, the actual law of the statute says as follows:

              II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods…
              James Madison stated, when he introduced the Bill of Rights to Congress:

              “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscious in any manner, or on any pretext, be infringed.”
              John Adams made it even more clear in his Treaty of Tripoli, article 11:
              Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
              George Washington repeated John Adams words and added to them:

              “The government of the United States, is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.”

              And one more from Thomas Jefferson:

              “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.”

              Liked by 2 people

            17. Whether or not we have any more rights than other animals is far from self evident let alone that all humans are created equal.

              Where do these rights come from? Do we make them up and then as long as we agree to them they stay? It would seem they could then be alienated if we stop agreeing right? Do they come from the state? I think there are more explainers needed – if you deny that God gave us these rights.

              Like

            18. let alone that all humans are created equal.

              Yeah Christians do not believe all humans were created equal. And they proved this, by their brutal slaughter and mass genocides against anyone Christians felt were inferior to them.

              Like

            19. Joe,

              In answer to your first question (“Where do these rights come from?”), I’ll quote Malcolm X:

              “Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you’re a man, you take it.”

              The revolutionaries took up arms to secure their liberties.

              In answer to your second question, the answer is yes: the U.S. Constitution is a compact between “we the people” and remains in force only so long as “we the people” remain committed to honoring the sentiments expressed therein; the parchment it’s written on contains no magical powers to enforce itself.

              Finally, there is no God given right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In fact the declaration stands in stark contrast to the opinions expressed by the author in the closing verses of Ecclesiastes:

              “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” (KJV)

              Liked by 2 people

            20. Fear god and keep his commandments. Ok, so when are we going to start stoning to death all those adulterers? And mouthy kids? Or hey, why should we prosecute pedophiles who rape virgin girls? I mean they should just pay the girls father 50 bucks and then she should have to marry her rapist for life. And when do we start stoning to death women who are being raped and do not scream loud enough to be heard? Or how about all those other abominations commandments of gawd? You know the ones, where you are not supposed to eat the meat of or touch the skin of a pig, or eat fish from the lakes and seas without scales or fins, or to cut the sides of your beards, or women cutting their hair, and hey, no farmer should be allowed to grow two different crops in the same field, or anyone should caught working on the Sabbath day should also be stoned to death.

              Funny how god believers say we should fear their god and keep his commandments, while Christians ignore 99% of his commandments, especially the ones of: Thou shall do not murder, thou shall bear no false witness, thou shall not commit adultery,thou shall not take the lord thy god name in vain, why you Christians break these rules on a minute by minute basis.

              Oh yeah, I keep forgetting the hypocrisy loophole. Those laws, rules and commandments only apply to lgbts, atheists and Pagans. And if we do not keep them? Then Christians demand we be put to brutal deaths. But if a Christian does not keep them? Why hey, since Jesus came? He did away with those laws so we don’t have to follow them.

              Like

            21. Judaism holds that non-Jews are only bound to follow the seven laws of Noah:

              – do not commit murder
              – do not eat flesh torn from living animals
              – do not worship idols
              – do not commit blasphemy
              – do not commit sexual immorality
              – do not steal
              – establish courts of justice

              But it’s worth noting that the covenant between God and Noah in Genesis 9 only mentions the first two commands, along with the command to be ‘fruitful and multiply’. The other five come from the Book of Jubilees, which is considered pseudepigraphcal (i.e. “a forgery”) by most Christian sects.

              So technically, if you refrain from committing murder, refrain from eating living animals and produce lots of offspring — you’re in the clear. 🙂

              Like

            23. I’m loathe to paint with such a broad brush. Some Christians walk the walk; many don’t. And the worst offenders are usually those who hold positions of power within the church hierarchy.

              Liked by 1 person

            24. I do paint them with a broad stroke for the following reasons. And? I use a quote by Martin Luther King Jr to do so.

              “He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who help to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it, is actually cooperating with it.”

              So when Christians, with as much vehemence as they use to condemn us atheists? Or condemn lgbts? Or condemns Pagans? Condemn all their Christian pastors and preachers of hate? All their hundreds of thousands of preachers and pastors and priests busted for raping kids and their leaders who protected these degenerates? And condemns all the shit that ChristoFascists do? With the same voice they use to demand that Muslims put a stop to their extremists and haters?

              Then I will not equate all christians with such a broad stroke.

              You got thousands of Christians who will gather enforce to protest same sex marriage, or abortion, but when have you heard or seen them actually mass protest their ChristoTalibans or their Christian pedophiles? Not once have I ever seen that in all the 60 years I have been on this rock. Sure some will protest them…but they are in a very small minority.

              We survivors have had one protest, it was called the March Across the Brooklyn Bridge. Not many Christians actually joined us on that one let me tell ya. Almost all the protestors? Were either victims, survivors or people who work exposing these scumbags.

              I have yet to see any mass protest by Christians against any of their ChristoTaliban haters.

              So as far as I am concerned? They are all guilty. Plain and simple in my mind. Until they get off their asses and do what they should be doing.

              Like

            25. See, this is what I meant by being loathe to paint with such a broad brush. You quoted MLK, but seem to have forgotten that he was also a Christian. So in accordance with your previous statements, wouldn’t he be subject to the same condemnation you wish to mete out to every other Christian?

              Like MLK, I’d prefer to live in a nation where we judge people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin (or their philosophical beliefs). Because reducing people to “others” based purely on their physical traits or personal beliefs never ends well.

              Liked by 1 person

            26. That sums it up quite adequately for me. Well said. Now just watch those faith-driven people to look at you with a dead look of fake pity or blazing hatred. The Old Testament ought to be named “The Sacred Book of Hate.”

              Liked by 2 people

            27. Oh I typically get the blazing hatred of them. This is something I have well learned about Christians. They got the right to judge others, they got the right to tell others what to do with their lives, they even got the right to brutally murder you if you do not agree with them. Their history is full of this shit. They have a right to commit Crimes Against Humanity, such as mass slaughters and genocides, to torture people they call heretics and witches, to persecute lgbts, atheists and Pagans and others.

              But? YOU have no right to judge them, or call them out on all the evil they do to humanity. Because then? YOU are persecuting them.

              Well as I say….Christians should reap back all they have sown, to Pagans, Native Americans, atheists, lgbts, and many others and have done unto them as they have done unto us, and see if they can understand then? What real persecution is.

              I swear!!! The next Christian I am in front of, who screams, foaming at the mouth, that lgbts or atheists should be put to death? Is not going to be able to speak for a while cause their jaw will be wired shut by my breaking it. Cause this atheist? Has had far enough of their shit.

              Liked by 1 person

            28. I’ve turned the other cheek far too many times for Christians and Muslims. I refuse to turn the other cheek for those Fascist pig psychos any longer. As they sow? So shall they reap from me and as they demand be done unto others? I am going to demand the same? Be done unto them.

              Like

            29. Yes there is always the view that might makes right.

              In the US the revolutionaries gave a basis for why they went against England and it was Based on natural law.

              ” When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

              In France the revolutionaries took up arms as well. They let the state have all the power and they ended up slaughtering many people.

              Totalitarianism is just that – a government which is not checked by any other force.
              “Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state” Mussolini

              We need balances against National power. People may not like Churches or believe in God but they have served as a counter to state power in the west. Just about every time the churches were oppressed we ended up with bad results. All totalitarian states eventually want churches destroyed because they want complete allegiance.

              The question for atheists is what other institutions can they form as a moral counterweight to the state? World governments is essentially jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

              I think atheists could support federalism and buttressing local government. Continue to try to limit federal government and allow people to live as they want in the various states and cities.

              Liked by 1 person

            30. That’s correct! The American revolutionaries appealed to the laws of nature and nature’s god, rather than divine law. Moreover, the second paragraph states that in order “to secure those rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed” — an outright rejection of the divine right of kings, which institutionalized the “might makes right” doctrine supported by the Church of of Rome — and instituted a constitutional republic, rather than a Christian theocracy.

              So I submit that enlightenment values were not informed by Christian theology; because if that were truly the case, those rights and liberties would have been freely extended throughout all of Christendom right from the very beginning instead of reluctantly granted after a series of revolts and insurrections by the people over fourteen centuries later.

              In regards to France, the revolution went sour for multiple reasons: political infighting, financial crisis, natural disaster and foreign incursions to contain the revolution from spreading throughout Europe. I think the American colonies fared better partly because they were isolated from all the drama occurring in Europe and partly because they had a greater resolve to sever all ties with their monarchy than their French counterparts. But I could be wrong.

              As to your question, I subscribe to the philosophy of “live and let live” — a philosophy that requires no institution, or hierarchical organization or house of worship to implement and follow.

              “An it harm none, do what thou wilt.”–Wiccan Rede

              And yes, I agree that a limited federal government is best. My views align with those of the late Nathaniel Branden:

              “The organizing principle of a moral society is respect for individual rights, and the sole appropriate function of government is to act as a guardian and protector of individual rights.”

              Liked by 3 people

            31. Ron thanks for your comments. I enjoy reading them even if I look at things a bit differently.

              Ron:
              “Moreover, the second paragraph states that in order “to secure those rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed” — an outright rejection of the divine right of kings, which institutionalized the “might makes right” doctrine supported by the Church of of Rome — and instituted a constitutional republic, rather than a Christian theocracy.”

              Joe:
              Sort of. I agree it rejects the monarchy. I don’t think that is the same as “might makes right.”
              Your quote makes it clear the purpose of the government is to secure our God given rights. The government does not create the rights. Their power to secure those rights comes from the the people but the rights themselves come from God.

              This is the point Martin Luther King Jr. made in his Letter from a Birmingham Jail.

              I also agree that Popes and Bishops have had all sorts of foolish ideas about politics and they still do. Jesus was not a politician.

              Ron:
              “So I submit that enlightenment values were not informed by Christian theology; because if that were truly the case, those rights and liberties would have been freely extended throughout all of Christendom right from the very beginning instead of reluctantly granted after a series of revolts and insurrections by the people over fourteen centuries later.”

              Joe:
              That is not how cultures change unless they are forced to change like that due to force. But force requires strict rules and Christ gave us a direction not a bunch of rules. That direction has moved in the direction of loving everyone especially the least among us. Every culture influenced by Christianity moves in that direction and the rules gradually change.

              Ron:
              “In regards to France, the revolution went sour for multiple reasons: political infighting, financial crisis, natural disaster and foreign incursions to contain the revolution from spreading throughout Europe.”
              Joe:
              It went sour because it had no moral foundation. The USA maintained one.

              Ron:

              “As to your question, I subscribe to the philosophy of “live and let live” — a philosophy that requires no institution, or hierarchical organization or house of worship to implement and follow.
              “An it harm none, do what thou wilt.”–Wiccan Rede
              And yes, I agree that a limited federal government is best. My views align with those of the late Nathaniel Branden:
              “The organizing principle of a moral society is respect for individual rights, and the sole appropriate function of government is to act as a guardian and protector of individual rights.””

              These philosophies raise more questions than they answer. What rights do people have? What is considered harm is selling fast food harming someone? Is promoting it? Is selling porn harming someone? Is eating animals harm?

              Christianity has always focused on human beings.

              I think the Wiccan Rede quote is insufficient. Do good *and* avoid evil. A life where you just avoid harm might be accomplished by suicide. I prefer the Christian view “Love and do what you will” from St. Augustine. If the good of others is motivating us, it is unlikely we will go far off course.

              Liked by 2 people

            32. Hi Joe. Thanks for your response and apologies for the delayed reply.

              I’m not sure on what basis it can be argued that our rights come from God, given that no religious text mentions God granting us the right to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. In fact, one could argue that some of our enumerated rights explicitly reject the Abrahamic codes. As mentioned in my previous comment, “the pursuit of happiness” disregards the directive to “fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man” (Eccl. 12:13) while “deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed” rejects the biblical injunction that “the king’s word is supreme” (Eccl. 8:4).

              Moreover, the first amendment establishment clause enshrining freedom of religion violates the biblical command that says “thou shalt have no other gods before me” and only three of the remaining nine commandments — murder, theft and perjury — are codified in U.S. law. Even the economic system — free market capitalism with non-stop appeals to buy more goods — violates Jesus’ directive to sell everything you have and store up treasures in heaven rather than on earth.

              Would you not agree that all of the above run counter to Christian teachings?

              To the second point:

              I don’t dispute that cultures change gradually unless motivated to do so through force. But I’m prompted to ask why it took predominantly Christian countries so long to discover that basic human rights we now take for granted should be part and parcel of following Jesus’ instructions to love your neighbor as yourself. And why did the southern U.S. Baptists split from the northern Baptists over the issue of slavery before finally concluding that it was immoral after all?

              I also disagree that the failure of the French revolution was predicated on a lack of moral foundation, because historians state the de-Christianization efforts met with strong resistance from the largely Catholic population. Or are you arguing that Catholics have no moral foundation?

              In response to your question “What rights do people have?” (or perhaps more importantly, “What rights should people have?”) the answer is: the right to pursue one’s own interests unimpeded by others so long as those pursuits do not physically harm or violate the rights of others; which automatically precludes the initiation of force against anyone other than for reasons of self defense. So consensual transactions between mentally competent individuals whose activities having no bearing on anyone other than themselves would not be considered harmful under the circumstances you’ve presented. Nor would a contract for assisted suicide initiated by patients wishing to end there lives after being diagnosed with a terminal illness. Animal rights are another topic, but I consider it morally wrong to kill animals for anything other than humanitarian reasons, or in self defense against attack, or under extreme circumstances where no other sources of food are available. However, please note that this is just a very brief and general overview of my philosophical position — not a comprehensive explanation.

              Liked by 3 people

            33. Hi Ron

              I think though shalt murder enshrines a right to life. As far as a right to happiness that term may not be used directly but Jesus explains that his teaching of love is so that our joy may be full:
              ““As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.”

              The establishment and the freedom of religion clauses are two seperate clauses. They do not contradict Christs teachings but rather they fit well with them. Give to Cesar what is Cesars and God what is Gods. Christ was not a politician and Christianity is not a political party. Of course, that does not mean Christians are not concerned with how government treats people. But you can be a christian regardless of your circumstances. In some cases it may mean you will be killed or persecuted though.

              And no the first amendment does not require that I have a God before the Christian God. Quite the opposite. It says the government can not force me to accept a God. I think you are deeply mistaken if you think anything in the first amendment requires me to accept a God before the Christian God.

              I recognize you are pulling quotes from the Hebrew bible and trying to suggest Christians should take them literally and follow them like laws today. But that is contrary to how Christ told us to view them.
              https://trueandreasonable.co/2019/11/12/anti-theists-and-pharisees-can-interpret-the-old-testament-the-way-they-want-i-will-interpret-it-the-way-god-wants/

              You are arguing like a pharisee. Jesus did not simply agree with pharisees he took a different approach.

              It is unclear what you are saying with the 10 commandments. Are you saying because they are not Federal law I must violate them? I think you are straining to find some sort of conflict that is not there.

              Why do you think Jesus asking people to sell everything and give to the poor means he thinks we should have a non-capitalist economy? If it were socialist we wouldn’t be able to sell anything to other people as that violates a socialist system. Again I think you are straining to try to make the our system incompatible with Christianity. So no nothing in our constitution or our free market system makes it impossible to be a Christian or even hard to be a Christian. Quite the opposite.

              And there just because government derive their just power to “enforce” our God given rights from the people that does not mean the framers thought god didn’t give us the rights that Government should enforce. They explicitly say the opposite.

              God gives us the rights not Government. Then the people who have these rights choose the government that will enforce the rights. However if that government violates these rights the people then should rebel. That is why they declared independence and that is why Martin Luther King violated the Law and ended up in a Birmingham Jail.

              I think perhaps you like others look at any moral code and think that if that is what is moral then it must be the law and enforced by the government. But that is not at all how I see it. Laws are generally based on morality but not every immorality should be illegal. Christ was literally crucified by the government. He was not a political king nor should Christians think the King was doing God’s will when the government Crucified him.

              Ron:
              “But I’m prompted to ask why it took predominantly Christian countries so long to discover that basic human rights we now take for granted should be part and parcel of following Jesus’ instructions to love your neighbor as yourself.”

              That is a good question. And of course to answer that question we would literally need to cover the events of thousands of years. It did take a long time to come to fruition. In part it is because Christianity is not and never was intended as a political movement to force our ethics on others. Christ calls us to be perfect not just to follow basic rules – like don’t murder each other. I don’t think we should outlaw being imperfect.

              In part because Christians like others find it hard to follow commands they think are against their self interest.

              But the seed was planted in Jesus’s emphasis on the command to love each other even your enemy. The seed was even planted earlier in Genesis with all people being made in the image of God.

              I recommend the book Dominion by Tom Holland.
              https://historyforatheists.com/2020/01/tom-holland-dominion/
              He is an atheist and seems not to have an ax to grind for or against Christianity. But he does argue I think persuasively that our modern humanism and so much of our current morality is Christian. He covers the good bad and ugly about Christianity through history. And there were all three.
              Ron:
              “In response to your question “What rights do people have?” (or perhaps more importantly, “What rights should people have?”) ”

              Joe:
              So are you saying we do not have rights unless we the government gives them to us or we use force ourselves to obtain them? Would that mean you literally agree that “might makes the right.” You seem to appeal to some higher authority when you say we “should” have the following rights.

              Are you just saying if you had your wish we would have these rights? So are the rights we should have the rights you think we should have? Or is there something/someone else that decides what rights we “should” have? France says the government properly deliniates what rights we should have. In the US the framers thought God decided that and the people had the authority to decide how the government would enforce those rights. But the framers did not think whatever the majority of people decided would create the rights. The amendments were to protect God given rights from being abused by the majority. That way even if the majority thought people should exercise their religion one way they could not force others to do it that way.

              You mention suicide, should this only be legal when someone has a terminal illness? What if someone is just depressed should we help them kill themselves?

              Here is my view. We should act out of love of others. That is we should will good for them. “Love and do what you will.” If you follow Augustine’s advise you wont go too far astray.
              https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/study/module/augustine/

              Like

            34. By faith you have completely skewed the point of Ron’s comment and made a mountain out of a mole hill. I was certain his comment was so reasonable that you would agree. Fascinating

              Like

            35. Jim
              I addressed the specifics of his lengthy comment and explained why I don’t accept some parts of his position. If you don’t like to hear the other side’s view then I won’t comment here. If you think I am misrepresenting history or scripture then feel free to point out where.

              Simply claiming the other side is biased is not really helpful.

              Liked by 1 person

            36. Ron—“Moreover, the first amendment establishment clause enshrining freedom of religion violates the biblical command that says “thou shalt have no other gods before me” While America embraces all facets of every faith. Not biblical at all.
              Joe—“And no the first amendment does not require that I have a God before the Christian God. Quite the opposite. It says the government can not force me to accept a God”
              Your answer makes no sense whatsoever unless it is a special plead, or just not understanding his comment which is quite accurate. Christianity wants to claim origination of US law yet it’s own scripture is at odds with it.

              Liked by 1 person

            37. Jim I said
              1) “The first amendment does not require that I have a God before the Christian God.”

              Do you think the first amendment requires me to have some other God before the Christian God? I am not sure what is unclear.

              I said it is the opposite
              “[The first amendment] says the government can not force me to accept a God”

              Do you not agree with that?

              If that is the case how is the first amendment forcing me to put some other God before the Christian God?

              Like

            38. Joe

              Yes, “thou shalt not murder” enshrines a right to life. But that would be a very superficial reading of the framer’s intentions because the phrase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” expresses an ideal: complete autonomy over one’s own life and property — i.e. to be free from authoritarian rule, not just the right not to be killed; which renders the passage about self-sacrifice you quoted from John 15 rather ludicrous once we factor in the extreme levels of religious intolerance that existed between the various Christian factions within the thirteen colonies at that time.

              Nor is there any reference to the scriptures in the DOI or U.S. Constitution. In fact, the Constitution of Virginia which served as a blueprint for the U.S. Constitution, makes no mention of God at all. In Section 1 it states:

              That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity, namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

              http://www.nhinet.org/ccs/docs/va-1776.htm

              In his letter to Henry Lee dated May 8, 1825, Thomas Jefferson explains that the DOI was:

              . . . an expression of the American mind, and to give to that expression the proper tone and spirit called for by the occasion. All its authority rests then on the harmonizing sentiments of the day, whether expressed in conversation, in letters, printed essays, or in the elementary books of public right, as Aristotle, Cicero, Locke, Sidney, &c.

              Please note the conspicuous absence of any accreditation to God, Jesus, the Bible, or Christian teachings in that list.

              http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/jefl282.php

              And my point about the first amendment was that it grants the right to follow whatever religion one desires — or none at all; which is at complete odds with the biblical edict to worship God alone.

              As for reading the OT passages I cited literally, there is no other option available given that similar edicts to obey all earthly authorities appear within the pages of New Testament, as well. Moreover, those passages were/are most certainly taken quite literally by Anglicans who swore/swear their allegiance to the English monarch because s/he is deemed to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. So when the revolutionaries refused to pay their taxes to King George they disobeyed Jesus’ instructions to render unto Caesar (i.e. their earthly ruler) what belongs to Caesar (whose appointed governor, Pontius Pilate, was a much more brutal tyrant than King George).

              In regards to the ten commandments, my point was merely that they do not inform American law. Nor are they unique, because laws prohibiting murder, theft and perjury can be found in the Mesopotamian era Code of Ur-Nammu (c. 2100–2050 BC) and the Code of Hamurabi (c. 1772 BC) — both of which predate the Decalogue by at least 10 to 13 centuries. And on a side note, don’t you find it odd that we still have the original stone artifacts of those older codes but not the original tablets of stone inscribed with the 10 commandments?

              You state that it takes a long time for Christian ideals to come to fruition and that Christian adherents find it difficult to overcome their self interests to follow Jesus’ instructions. Yet many people around the world have attained those ideals absent any god beliefs. For instance, in his journals Christopher Columbus noted that the inhabitants he met on his first voyage (and eventually annihilated) already practiced the neighborly love espoused by Christianity despite having had no prior exposure to Christian teachings; but nonetheless deemed it necessary to attempt to convert them anyways.

              So given its brutal and bloody history, how can anyone argue that Christianity is superior to any other religion or ideology. As the protagonist in No Country For Old Men noted: if the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?

              In response to your question on rights, I’m saying that voluntary adherence to the moral code I presented leads to a more functional society, and that this moral code was derived by man following millennia of trial and error — not handed down by gods or government. And yes, in order to secure those rights it may be necessary to exercise force against those who wish to squash those rights. But protecting oneself against an oppressor is not the equivalent of decreeing something is moral solely because you possess the power to enforce that decree.

              And yes, I meant physician-assisted suicides for the terminally ill only.

              Liked by 3 people

            39. Ron we can find all sorts of quotes pro God and many that leave God out. Anyone who wants to google this can do that. I gave an article that give many pro God quotes from founders.

              It is interesting that Jefferson refers to the DOI which specifically says our rights come from God and you say this proves they don’t. If the DOI does not make reference to Aristotle or Cicero or Locke as creating our rights – it says they come from God. Whatever Jefferson may have later thought doesn’t matter. The DOI was already written and approved.

              I think I mentioned John because you said something like jesus never expressed concern for our happiness. The quote shows that one of his goals in giving us the command to love eachother is so that we will have joy.

              Again Christianity is not a religion that insists its requirments be made law. No one is saying people should be arrested for not being perfect even though that is what Christ tells us to be. Law is based on morality but not all morality is law.

              The first amendment is certainly a practical tool. No one thinks it is good to spread falsehood or worship false gods or for the press to spread falsehood etc. But these things are protected as a practical measure. Just because it is done as a practical measure does not mean it is not important.

              If new testament passages support your view then provide them. But so far you are just reading the old testament like the pharisees that Jesus disagreed with.

              “So given its brutal and bloody history, how can anyone argue that Christianity is superior to any other religion or ideology.”

              Again compared to what? Some tiny tribe with no written language that seemed to get along ok but really we have very little information about because they were wiped out by disease? Why not look at the more recent societies that rejected christianity in a straight forward way. Muslim countries and China or the Soviet Union or North Korea? That is my point with much of this. You want to look past so much in order to find some tiny group that wasn’t christian and say “see this is what life is like without christianity” But you are ignoring the 99.999% of the rest of the world. Again read Tom Holland dominion. He is an atheist historian who specifically addresses the impact of Christianity around the world. He can’t cover everything but he does cover large swaths of space. Don’t be afraid to learn.

              “In response to your question on rights, I’m saying that voluntary adherence to the moral code I presented leads to a more functional society, and that this moral code was derived by man following millennia of trial and error — not handed down by gods or government. And yes, in order to secure those rights it may be necessary to exercise force against those who wish to squash those rights.”

              If people disagree about what another’s rights are and one side uses force then it is not voluntary. Sure we all think it would be wonderful if everyone agreed with our own views of what rights people have. Should they all be paid the same amount? Should everyone have equal access to “healthcare”? Will everyone agree an abortion is or is not “healthcare.” Etc etc. But that is not reality. So we try to find some common ground. Such as everyone is made in God’s image so they have equal value. But then that will get tossed out because many people no longer believe in God. So then what is the basis for treating all people equal? Clearly we all have different traits so if you are going to look at the traits then you won’t find equality. I don’t really mind how you do it, I am just asking because if you have laws with no reasoned basis they will go away.

              Like

            40. Joe,

              The question isn’t whether or not the founders were religious (many of them were) but whether the founding documents were based on Christian teachings. And the answer to that question is: they were not. For instance, the preamble of many state constitutions mention “Almighty God” or “Divine Being” or “Supreme Being” whereas the Constitution of the United States (COTUS) does not, and several state constitutions contain a clause that prevents atheists or certain sects from holding office, whereas the COTUS specifically prohibits the use of a religious test to qualify for any public office or trust.

              https://www.usconstitution.net/states_god.html
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Religious_Test_Clause

              The NT passages (aside from Jesus’ instructions to render onto Caesar) that support my view that the bible says to obey all earthly authorities (including slave-masters) can be found in Romans 13:1-7, 1 Peter 2:13-18 and Titus 3:1.

              Those peaceful tribes were wiped out not only by disease, but due to pogroms carried out by their Christian captors. So the point isn’t whether or not non-Christian societies can be worse, but why Christian societies weren’t demonstrably better prior to the Age of Enlightenment.

              No gods required are required for us to figure out that being treated fairly and equitably is preferable to being treated unfairly and inequitably. And save for psychopaths, sociopaths and sadomasochists, the desire for equality and the right to remain unmolested by others is not only universal, but easy to understand and implement.

              Liked by 3 people

            41. “Those peaceful tribes were wiped out not only by disease, but due to pogroms carried out by their Christian captors. So the point isn’t whether or not non-Christian societies can be worse, but why Christian societies weren’t demonstrably better prior to the Age of Enlightenment.”

              The printing press.

              The Printing press meant people were better educated including having a better understanding of their religion including Christianity but also atheism and other religions.

              Notice how you want to focus on pre printing press times where people did not understand Christianity or much else as compared to after the printing press, was better established and people were much better educated.

              The question is not why were christians not much better before the printing press. That is obvious many people really didn’t understand very much including their own religion. So yes ignorant Christians will act much the same as others who are ignorant.

              The question is why is it that after the printing press and people more fully understand their christian faith do Chrisitan cultures do so much better than many other cultures?

              We see train wrecks like the anti-christian french revolution, Soviet Bolshevik revolution, rejection of Christianity in Nazi-ism, Chinese atheism, Muslim majority countries in a shambles etc etc.

              The printing press has existed for centuries to inform all of these christian alternative cultures. Why are they fairing so much worse?

              Like

            42. There’s no doubt that the invention of the printing press opened the floodgates of communication, much like the Internet has today.

              But does it really matter in regards to my original question? Because I submit that the message received from the Sermon on the Mount (love your enemies, turn the other cheek, give to the needy, etc.) is just as easily understood in aural form as it is in written form. So why did those moral directives fail to take root in so-called Christian countries for so long. Shouldn’t a genuine desire to follow Jesus’ teachings (which is basically just a rewording of the “golden rule”) have resulted in an immediate end to the practice of slavery and willingness to engage in bloody conquests? Instead we read of the opposite: more battles, more brutality and more human subjugation. Why is that?

              As to your second point: by what metric did you conclude that non-Christian cultures were/are faring worse than their Christian counterparts? In terms of technological development I would tend to agree. But I would rank it (and material wealth) as less important than personal autonomy, mental well-being and social harmony on the hierarchical list of what constitutes living the “good” life.

              Anthropologist Daniel Everett learned this when he went to convert the Pirahã tribe to Christianity and found he had nothing of value to offer them:

              https://www.thewisemag.com/life/the-happiest-people-on-earth

              Liked by 1 person

            43. “Shouldn’t a genuine desire to follow Jesus’ teachings (which is basically just a rewording of the “golden rule”) have resulted in an immediate end to the practice of slavery and willingness to engage in bloody conquests?”

              Only if people know these teachings. Hence the importance of the printing press. We see that in the largely illiterate world that existed prior to the printing press the understanding of Christianity among the society was very hit or miss.

              “Instead we read of the opposite: more battles, more brutality and more human subjugation. Why is that?”

              Where are you reading that? I am not reading that. Tom Holland and Rodney Stark (neither of them are Christian) both have tried to look at the actual evidence assess the impact of Christianity on their cultures and reached the opposite conclusion you claim.

              I realize many have complained about Christianity in certain circumstances. But I am not aware of anyone that took a systemic and objective look at the evidence and found that Christian teachings made the world worse. So I would be interested in some scholar arguing the opposite.

              “As to your second point: by what metric did you conclude that non-Christian cultures were/are faring worse than their Christian counterparts? In terms of technological development I would tend to agree. But I would rank it (and material wealth) as less important than personal autonomy, mental well-being and social harmony on the hierarchical list of what constitutes living the “good” life.”

              By any of these metrics. The societies with a heavy christian influence are doing better in a statistically relevant way. I am not saying every time in every measure but by and large looking around the world I think you can see that cultures more heavily influenced by Christianity are doing better.

              In the east you have countries that have opened up to the west such as Taiwan South Korea and Japan, Hong Kong. You also have countries that have tried to shut out the west and especially christian influence such as N. Korea and China.

              We have and have had specifically atheists countries, and countries and cultures of several different religions. Trying to reverse christian values has almost invariably lead to tragic results.

              So what do you mention to claim Christianity made things worse?

              You mention the Piraha tribe/people. It is about 800 people according to wikipedia. So you are pretty much making my point. Even if I were to grant that this people is better and would not be made better if Christian teachings were taught it is an extreme outlier.

              It is interesting we really do not have much of a history of them and seem to rely mainly on the views of one person. That is not to say they are not happy I agree that people can be happy without the material items we have. But it is not for everyone.

              Like

            44. “ Only if people know these teachings. Hence the importance of the printing press. We see that in the largely illiterate world that existed prior to the printing press the understanding of Christianity among the society was very hit or miss”
              Do you really believe that? Do you think any slaves could not see the injustice without the teachings of jesus?

              Liked by 1 person

            45. Yes I believe it. That is why people who used to be slaves but then regained their freedom did not have an issue owning slaves themselves. All sorts of people were enslaved and then free and able to write. Yet we have no written polemic against slavery as an institution until Bishop Gregory of Nyssa.
              https://trueandreasonable.co/2019/07/01/slavery-and-christianity-the-first-known-abolitionist-speech/

              Certainly slaves would at times complain about their treatment, just like any group might complain about their treatment.

              Was there someone that write against slavery and their writing is lost? I suspect that may be the case, and it is certainly possible. But my point is that, given the predominance of slavery throughout the world, if people all “really knew” slavery was immoral as you suggest, we would have more writing on it.

              Our current view of the issue suggests a major shift in moral thinking. The historical evidence suggest that this major shift was brought on by the spreading of christian morality.

              I have not seen anything like Bishop Gregory’s homily against slavery from anyone before him. But if you have anything let me know.

              Liked by 1 person

            46. Yep, joe, I know that lots of people think and know that all sorts of things in the bible aren’t historical. Christians themselves can’t agree on what parts are supposedly to be taken literally, what parts are to be considered metaphor (of course not agreeing on what the metaphor is) and what parts are to be ignored because they are inconvenient.

              And yep, those are still part of scripture, showing that your bible is full of nonsense. It is generally accepted that the story of the adulteress was added long after the gospels were first put together, and even Christians accept this. So, we have one added part where your supposed savior doesn’t follow a literalistic reading of the law, but other parts where this character does. This again shows that your gospels were simply made up to suit the purpose of the author, whomever that was. Contradictions pop up constantly when people make up nonsense, just like when fans of Star Wars or the Marvel universe try to retcon the stories.

              yep, I’ve seen your quotes from the bible, and again, I laugh at you for your claims that you and only you are interpreting it like your god wants. Every Christian makes that claim and none of you can show that your claims are true, all the time contradicting each other. We just have a pile of people who are delusional enough to claim that their god agrees with them. That none of you can do what the bible promises every baptized believer in Christ as savior can do, I’m not impressed by your baseless nonsense. As it stands, there is not one actual Christian on earth from the evidence. Just a bunch of poseurs who need to pretend that their personal hates and desires are agree to by some magical being. It is an addictive idea, that you are so very special. But it isn’t true.

              All Christians like you claim that they are quoting in context and claim you know “exactly “ what the character Christ means. I’m still waiting for you to show this is the case and disprove the rest. When will that happen, Joe?
              Yep, I do understand quite a bit about the Founding Fathers of the US. I know that you lie about them too and I’m more than happy to point that out. Rights come from humans. Those rights have changed through history.

              Still waiting for you to show your version of your god exists. That would be a good start.

              Liked by 1 person

            47. Funny isn’t it? I actually have a masters degree in biblical studies and comparative religion from the Bangor Theological Seminary. I can quote the bible with my eyes closed. And idiots like Joe here thinks he knows it all and is the only one who can truly interpret the buybull. He has even slammed me saying I do not know the buybull like he does nor should I be allowed to even quote it, or expound upon it. When I got more education on this than that mental midget moron could ever have on this topic.

              And then? He wants me to buy the Christian Convervative psycho group the Heritage Foundation as a truth about the Founding Fathers? Yeah right. Heritage Foundation was founded by Reich-Wing ChristoTalibans who insist our country was founded on their ChristoFascist religion, etc. Despite all the words not only of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, James Monroe, Thomas Paine and many others? But the about two hundred years worth of Supreme Court rulings, decisions that this country was in fact? Founded on the separation of church and state.

              But to Joe? That does not matter, none of this matters cause in his hypocrisy? He actually thinks? He is god himself. And we all know what we call idiots who actually think they are god himself and has all the answers. We call them psychotic

              Like

            49. CS
              Just because soemething is not literal history does not mean it is nonesense.

              The Gospels are full of times Jesus rejects the law in the literal legalistic sense you think Christians should follow. Here is a blog where I go through them.
              https://trueandreasonable.co/2019/11/12/anti-theists-and-pharisees-can-interpret-the-old-testament-the-way-they-want-i-will-interpret-it-the-way-god-wants/

              I posted it before but you seem to only want to read arguments that agree with you.

              “yep, I’ve seen your quotes from the bible, and again, I laugh at you for your claims that you and only you are interpreting it like your god wants.”

              Those quotes are either from Jesus or describing what Jesus did in light of the OT concerns and indeed how God interprets the OT. Jesus was at odds with your legalistic view of the OT so often in all the reports that you could not have possibly read the New Testament and think Christians should follow the OT the way you describe.

              Your views are shot down repeatedly. Not just in the adulteress account but just about every time Jesus addresses the OT laws – which happened over and over again. Sorry but I built my views based on what the gospels say not on what some angry atheist says. That is why I actually quote the gospels to support my views.

              Like

            50. So Joe. “Just because soemething is not literal history does not mean it is nonesense.”

              So, this would indicate that all religions are as valid as yours since there is no way to determine which baseless claim is nonsense and which isn’t.

              Yep, the gospels are indeed full of contradictions, Joe, where your supposed savior says one thing about the law and then contradicts it with another. It shows that your gospels are nonsense and invented by humans who pick and choose what they want their “god” to approve of. Just like you do when you claim you are the sole arbiter of what this god really wants. And I don’t just read arguments that agree with me, I read yours and then I tear them apart. False claims on your part don’t help.

              I can indeed read the NT and know that Christians should follow the OT as Jesus described. What we have from you is that you somehow know what JC “really” meant when he said “follow the law until heaven and earth pass away”, but you can’t actually show or prove this. What do you want to pretend that JC “really” meant, Joe? What Matthew 5 “really” mean and again how can you show that your opinion is your god’s? There are hundreds of laws so do we have to go through each of them and decide if JC was up for a literal reading or not?

              What my point is: Christians make up their own religion in their image. Each comes up with what they want their god to approve of. Each insists that their god told them they were right. And each Christian contradicts the other. This is strong evidence that Christianity is nonsense and should not be allowed to spread without being countered since it does horrible harm to people.

              You’ve not shot down a single view of mine, Joe. Claiming so doesn’t make something magically true. Again, Christians have shown that the adulteress account is not original to the gospels. Christians come up with what OT laws they want to follow and which they want to ignore based on nothing but their own hates and desires. You build your views on what you want, and try to make believe some god agrees with you, just like ever other Christian who disagrees with you. They can quote gospel too.

              Like

            51. Jesus explained what he meant in the sermon on the mount. If want to read it you can. If you think he contradicts himself that’s fine but quoting him would be a better start.

              Like

            52. the sermon on the mount is just one part of one gospel. We have no evidence it was ever spoken as a historical fact nor can we consider it as truth since you have yet to show the existence of any god or any of the essential events of the bible. The sermon is no more or less historical or true than the other parts of the bible that you don’t like.

              The sermon on the mount says nothing about not following the OT laws. In fact we have JC supposedly saying that those who do follow the laws, e.g. the righteous (acting in accord with divine or moral law – merriam webster) are those who are most blessed.

              Further on in Matthew 5, JC takes the laws and makes them more stringent, that one can’t even have bad thoughts about others, that one can’t defend one’s self, etc.

              Here are all of the JC quotes you want: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+5&version=NRSV

              Liked by 3 people

            53. Yes read the first two sentences. This and the next two chapters are the sermon on the mount. The divisions and chapters are not in the original greek. Its just all written right along in the same context.

              I agree he makes the rules more stringent and expects more from us. He makes it clear that simply not murdering someone is not enough. He takes the cap off of morality. He wants us to be the best we possibly can. Sp he does not give rules he gives us moral direction. He explains the basis of the rules so we can move past the OT.

              https://trueandreasonable.co/2019/10/09/christs-moral-direction-versus-moral-rules-approach-surpassing-every-jot/

              Like

            54. oh, so again your bible is shown to be a mess and your god unable to do anything about it. Tsk.

              the first two sentences are “When Jesus[a] saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. 2 Then he began to speak, and taught them, saying:”

              even if we go with the first two sentences said we get “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.”

              What is that supposed to show in terms of your baseless claims, Joe? “Jesus explained what he meant in the sermon on the mount. ” Again, nothing says not to follow the OT laws.

              Nope, no taking “cap” off of morality at all. Just baseles nonsense written to come out of the mouth of an imaginary character. No explanation of the “basis of the rules” except that they must be followed, *all* of them. No words saying the OT is to be abandoned.

              You’ve made all of that up and evidently so you aren’t stuck with inconvenient nonsense form the first century. You also can ignore the fact that the promises made in the “sermon on the mount” fail at every turn. This god does not take care of people, and christians do their best to ignore everything that tells them not to be loud arrogant nitwits.

              and honestly, if that was a real speech, it would have been hilarious, right out of Life of Brian, with the running from subject to subject with no plan.

              Liked by 1 person

            55. “What is that supposed to show in terms of your baseless claims, Joe? “Jesus explained what he meant in the sermon on the mount. ” Again, nothing says not to follow the OT laws.”

              Again he went to the foundational reasons for the laws and told us to live that way. And that is how I will interpret the old testament. Not the way you want. Don’t take my word read it for yourself.

              Like

            56. I’ve read the entire bible, Joe. I know that you do like every other christian who you claim isn’t “really” a Christian. You just make up what you want your god to say and do, so it is convenient for you. Every Christian has their lovely magic decoder ring to tell them how wonderful and special they must be since their god agrees with them and only them.

              It’s so very childish.

              Liked by 2 people

            57. You brought up objective morality. Is slaughtering infants as part of a sacrificial massacre(cherem) objectively right or wrong? Is stoning to death a woman that was raped in a town(as opposed to outside of a town) objectively right or wrong? Is killing someone’s children for the offense of their parent objectively right or wrong? Yahweh commands or does all of those things. So killing infants, executing rape victims, and punishing the innocent must all be good and righteous. If you say otherwise, you condemn Yahweh. You Christians say that Yahweh condemns everyone for not living up to his standards, and that we should all be like him.

              I played a trick on a Christian recently. Most don’t know the Bible all that well, so I got away with it. I described another religion and its god to them. All I really did was take some stories from the Bible and change the names. After a few stories, this Christian told me that I was describing an evil god, and they said something about the devil. I did not tell them what I did, but the result was what I expected. The source of the stories definitely effects judgements made about them. To put it bluntly, if they thought the story was from the Bible or some Jewish source, they wouldn’t have said that.

              If you want a superior basis for morality, as close to “objective” as a concept based on desire and aversion can be, there is an alternative. A system of karma, like in the religions that branched off the Vedic tradition. Buddhism might be the best example. It is fair, impartial, and about as just as it gets. All deeds and even thoughts will have an inevitable and proportional result down the line, unpleasant, pleasant, or neutral. What is sown will always eventually be reaped, so you’d better be careful what you sow. A karmic system avoids all the nonsense that Christians have to contend with. Like the example where a person did all sorts of evil things their whole life, but accepted Jesus and got forgiven. Let’s say they were a serial killer in the mold of Ted Bundy. This serial killer’s victims are likely to be in the Christian gehinnom, if they did not belong to the correct brand of Christianity. But the serial killer gets to into the Christian paradise. Salvation in the opinion of Christians is NOT based on any kind of moral action one way or the other. It is based on having the correct belief.

              Liked by 4 people

            58. Your serial killer scenario begets real life examples.

              Both Jeffrey Dahmer and Rudolf Höss (the commandant of Auschwitz) expressed remorse for their ‘sins’ and reaffirmed their belief in Jesus prior to death, which — according to Christian theology — means that both will be reclining with God in Heaven while their (presumably) non-Christian victims suffer for eternity in Hell. So much for cosmic justice.

              Liked by 2 people

            59. I can concur with what you said. I too have done that to Christians, and yeah, thankfully? Most don’t even know what is in their bibles. But I did the story of how the Tribe of Benjamin got their wives and Christians lost it and said that was one of the most evil stories they ever heard. Then the Japeth story of him sacrificing his two sons. They called that pure evil. But when I told them finally those stories actually came from the bible? They melted down and said I was Satanic for doing what I did. But it proved my point. If they had no clue that these stories came from the bible? They would call them purely evil stories.

              Liked by 1 person

        2. The Founding Fathers? Would call you a liar.
          John Adams made it even more clear in his Treaty of Tripoli, article 11:

          Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

          George Washington repeated John Adams words and added to them:

          “The government of the United States, is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.”

          And one more from Thomas Jefferson:

          “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.”

          Matter of fact? Thomas Jefferson made it even more clear in his Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and James Madison made it clear when he delivered the Bill of Rights to Congress that it was not the religious whose rights were more important, but those to be free from religion were more important.

          Thomas Jefferson starts out with his Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, where, the actual law of the statute says as follows:

          II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods…
          James Madison stated, when he introduced the Bill of Rights to Congress:

          “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscious in any manner, or on any pretext, be infringed.”

          You even have Thomas Jefferson and his Elementary School Act which prohibited Christian ministers and other religious from teaching in our public schools as well as his banning of theological teachers at his University of Virginia.

          Maybe you ought to actually study the Founding Fathers, all of them, including the Supreme court rulings, and many other things that prove, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the United States was NEVER founded on the Christian religion or any of it’s laws. Matter of fact? Our US Constitution and Bill of Rights? Were actually based on the Iriqois Confederation of Native Americans. And the Founding Fathers, from Jefferson to Adams to Monroe to Madison? All state this is where they actually got the idea for the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Not from you Christians, that is for sure.

          Like

          Reply

            1. Why the hell would I listen to the Heritage Foundation book of lies? Again and again, Christians insit that the founding fathers founded this country on their religion, which? Is a bald faced lie, plain and simple. Matter of fact? Jefferson and the rest? Condemned Christianity many times. Jefferson cut the bible up and created his own Jeffersonian Bible.

              Here are just some of the things Thomas Jefferson said about Christians, Christianity and the priests and pastors.

              “Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first the religion of your own country. Read the bible then, as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature does not weigh against them. But those facts in the bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from god. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong as that it’s [sic] falshood [sic] would be more improbable than a change of the laws of nature in the case he relates…. Do not be frightened from this enquiry by any fear of it’s [sic] consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in it’s [sic] exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe there is a god, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement. If that there be a future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a god, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. In fine, I repeat that you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject any thing because any other person, or description of persons have rejected or believed it. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable not for the rightness but uprightness of the decision…. Thomas Jefferson, letter to his young nephew Peter Carr, August 10, 1787.)

              History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. (Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Baron von Humboldt, 1813)

              The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man. (Thomas Jefferson, as quoted by Saul K. Padover in Thomas Jefferson on Democracy, New York, 1946, p. 165, according to Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, compilers, The Great Quotations on Religious Liberty, Long Beach, CA: Centerline Press, 1991, p. 48.)

              In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes. (Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814)

              Across the ages, clergy have been interested [according to Jefferson] not in truth but only in wealth and power; when rational people have had difficulty swallowing “their impious heresies,” then the clergy have, with the help of the state, forced “them down their throats.” Five years later, he [Jefferson] wrote of “this loathsome combination of church and state” that for so many centuries reduced human beings to “dupes and drudges.” (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 47. According to Gaustad, the first quotes are from a letter from Jefferson to William Baldwin, January 19, 1810; the second source is a letter from Jefferson to Charles Clay, January 29, 1815.)

              AGAIN? Here Thomas Jefferson did not even want a Professor of Theology at his University of Virginia.

              A professorship of Theology should have no place in our institution [the University of Virginia]. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper, October 7, 1814.

              In 1820 as he described his plans for the University of Virginia to his former private secretary, William Short, Jefferson acknowledged that his plan for the first truly secular university would have opposition: weak opposition (in his view) from the College of William and Mary, but strong opposition from “the priests of the different religious sects, to whose spells on the human mind its improvement is ominous.” (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 48. The letter to Short was dated 13 April 1820.)

              One of the best things Thomas Jefferson said about the mystical generation of Jesus.

              And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter…. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away [with] all this artificial scaffolding. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823,

              Liked by 1 person

            2. “Why the hell would I listen to the Heritage Foundation book of lies? ”

              Because it quotes the founding fathers and offers a more complete view than your rambling oneside posts.

              “Again and again, Christians insists that the founding fathers founded this country on their religion, which?”

              No thats not what I said nor is it what the article I sited to said. Sorry you can’t grasp even the slightest nuance.

              Like

            3. If I want to learn what the Founding Fathers truly said about the separation of church and state? I am not going to a Christian site called the Heritage Foundation to learn from them. I am going to take their words directly from their writings. And this is the site I use to get that from.

              https://infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html

              The only ones one-sided in this debate? Are Christians who seek to change the truth and reality, to say the Founding Fathers never spoke against religions like Christianity or talked about separation of church and state.

              But hey, here is Thomas Jefferson and James Madison speaking plain truth.

              Thomas Jefferson starts out with his Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, where, the actual law of the statute says as follows:

              II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods…
              James Madison stated, when he introduced the Bill of Rights to Congress:

              “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscious in any manner, or on any pretext, be infringed.”

              Do you even comprehend their words there Sunshine? Their words basically means our civil rights come before even your religious rights and no religious person has a right in the United States to force laws on others based on their ChristoTaliban bullshit religion. And that NO National religion shall be established.

              Going to Heritage Foundation? The same assholes who spew defense of Traitor Trump? And all the other bullshit the Heritage Foundation spews? They are an extremist, Reich-Wing Conservative bunch of Fascist pigs. What would I learn from them that I have not already learned about those Fascist pigs who want to install a ChristoTaliban Dominionist theocratic nightmare upon the rest of us.

              Oh and BTW, the buybull? Is complete and utter bullshit.

              There is NO historical proof of Noah’s Ark bullshit buybull story. Scientists, shipbuilders, chemical engineers, etc all prove that Noah’s Ark never happened nor could have ever happened the way it is decribed in the buybull. For instance? The size of his ark? With all the animals, matter of fact? it is actually 7 pairs of clean and 2 pairs of unclean animals that went on that ark. But just taking the 2 pairs of animals concept? There would have been only about 3 cm of space for each and every animal on that supposed ark. Then? How about all the methane and ammonia given off by the animals shit and piss? Methane and ammonia? Are both highly explosive and deadly gasses. Don’t believe me? Grab a bottle of ammonia and take some deep inhales, or get a canister of methane and inhale that shit and see what happens to you. Animals? Give off a whole lot of methane in their decomposing shit and give off a whole lot of ammonia with their piss. One spark in that ark down below deck? Would have blown it sky high. Or the humans and all the animals would be dead from methane and ammonia poisoning.

              There is NO historical proof from the Egyptians about Moses, the plagues, or the Jews being released by the Pharoh nor all those Jews wandering around in the desert for 40 years. NO TRACE if this anywhere. Matter of fact? The Egyptians at the time? Did not even call Jews the Jews, and most of the people who built the pyramids etc have been found they were not true slaves, but indentured workers or even paid workers. The Egyptians have absolutely no record about the supposed plagues, and one would think if this Jewish God did in fact? Kill all the first born of Egypt as claimed in the buybull? Then the Egyptians would have written about it, cause the Egyptians wrote about everything, including how they took their shits.

              There is absolutely NO historical proof of Jesus Christ. NONE, No matter what any Christian says? NO ONE wrote about Jesus except for in the buybull. And guess what Sunshine? YOU got to ask yourself the following question if you believe in the buybull so much.

              Why were not any “common” person even allowed, under pains of death, to own a copy of the bible, or even a page from it, or even? A verse from it until Gutenberg developed the movable printer and created the first mass published Bible, the Gutenberg bible and why did the Church do all they could to stop him from doing so? Why did they destroy his printing press? Why did they destroy the copies of the Gutenberg bible he had already produced? Why did they almost put him to death for producing the bible for the masses? Why did the rulers of the church hold back the bible for the masses for almost 1400 years? What were they hiding?

              Like

            4. The infidels site explicitly says they are only giving quotes that support separation of church and state. If you only want to learn one side of the argument then sites like that are fine. If you want to remain ignorant of the other arguments and quotations that support different views then don’t visit the other sites. Instead just say they are evil like hitler. You are not unlike certain Christians who want to simply demonize those that hold a different view. I don’t agree with that approach by Christians or anyone else. But if you want to be that way that’s your choice.

              I think the same applies to the other assertions you make in your comment. As long as you refuse to read people who might disagree with you, you will never grow intellectually.

              Like

            5. YOUR side of the argument comes from lies and falsehoods spread and perpetrated by Christians to demand that our country was founded on their religious beliefs, or our laws were founded on theirs and again? That is a bald faced lie perpetrated by ChristoTalibans. Plain and simple, our Constitution and Bill of Rights? Is based on the Native American nations of the Iroquois Confederacy and Haudenosaunee the Great Law of Peace.

              The one demonizing anyone here? Is yourself. YOU are demonizing us atheists who call bullshit on your lies and false assertions. Which is typical of Christians like yourself. When people disagree with you and gives you a different point of view? YOU trash it and demonize it and us. So hey, stop playing your typical Christian game of projection. I know all the tricks you Chrisitans play, believe that. Oh, and you are no Christian, not in any sense of the word, term or meaning. YOU are just one of those ChristoTaliban fakes who want to practice your intolerance against us atheists, and spread your damn lies, and then play your games by your projections.

              But the fact and truth is? The Founding Fathers not only spoke on the topic of the separation of church and state? But actually stated your religious rights? Come second to all other peoples civil rights. And you Christians who want to change history to fit your Taliban Hitler ways? Of Fascism? Of wanting to force your psychotic, brutal, hypocrite filled, blood covered in millions of innocents that Christians butchered and murdered in your Christian forced conversion programs, and your mass genocides of Native Americans? Prove just how hypocritical, two faced, vile and evil scum you Christians truly are. YOU Christians? Are no different than the Muslim Talibans you all cry about. No, I take that back, you are worse than the Muslim Talibans, because you all spew about peace and love and non-judgment, while you all spew hate, and lies, and war against those who do not believe as you all do, or do not want anything to do with your psychotic religion of hate and death.

              Liked by 2 people

            6. Wow take it easy.

              “YOUR side of the argument comes from lies and falsehoods spread and perpetrated by Christians…”

              This is the sort of in group bias we should all be trying to keep in check. I don’t think Jim is on the “side of lies.” Yes we both think the other is biased and misinformed but I can sometimes have a conversation with him that doesn’t erupt into us both saying the other a liar.

              Would you agree that most of the native North South and Central Americans that died shortly after Europeans came died as the result of diseases?

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

              Liked by 1 person

            9. Good old Joe, always thinking you know it all and no one knows nothing. Well Joey, I am an Aniwaya Cherokee and I know exactly what you scumbag Cocksuckers for Christ did to us, and I know all about your ChristoTalibans use of not only germ warfare against us, but forced death marches to death camps you all call reservations, or how once your ChristoTaliban psychotic butchering ancestors got us on those death camps? They then slaughtered all our buffalo and other game to further commit acts of starving us to death.

              And of course? You Cocksuckers for Christ? Will always defend, minimize, justify or lie about all the evil you ChristoTaliban Cocksuckers for Christ have perpetrated upon humanity for about 1,700 years now.

              And? I sure do wish that all you ChristoTalibans? Would reap back all you have sown and have done unto you all? Like you all did to us Native Americans, and to Pagans, and to Africans, and to Jews and to many others you ChristoTaliban Cocksuckers for Christ have persecuted and brutally murdered, in the name of your loving, forgiving, non-judgmental, merciful, turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies, religion of bullshit and hypocrisy.

              Like

            10. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison made it quite clear. YOUR religious beliefs? Take a damn back seat to all other persons civil rights.

              Thomas Jefferson starts out with his Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, where, the actual law of the statute says as follows:

              II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods…

              DO YOU GET HIS WORDS? NO MAN SHALL BE COMPELLED TO FREQUENT OR SUPPORT ANY RELIGIOUS PLACE, NOR SHALL BE ENFORCED, RESTRAINED, MOLESTED OR BURDENED IN HIS BODY OR GOODS BECAUSE OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. SO HERE? JEFFERSON IS STATING THAT THE RIGHTS OF RELIGIOUS? DO NOT TRUMP THE RIGHTS OF US TO BE FREE FROM YOUR PSYCHOTIC RELIGIONS.

              James Madison stated, when he introduced the Bill of Rights to Congress:

              “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscious in any manner, or on any pretext, be infringed.”

              AGAIN, DID YOU GET ADAMS WORDS? NO NATIONAL RELIGION SHALL BE ESTABLISHED, AND NO ONES CIVIL RIGHTS SHALL BE DENIED TO THEM ON ACCOUNT OF PSYCHOTIC RELIGIOUS CHRISTIAN OR ANY OTHER TALIBANS.

              Liked by 1 person

            11. The quotes say the opposite to what you claim. You claim religious views take a back seat to national laws. But they are saying the national laws can not force our religious views to take a back seat.

              That was the problem with England. Its laws did not allow people to practice the religion they wanted. So people here said the law will be subordinate to religious conscience. That is “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”

              Is that limitation on Congress (the civil governemnt) or on a Churches? It is a limitation on Congress. “Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of religion” It does not say Congress can pass laws ending established religions in states or towns. Such an action would violate the clear wording that Congress shall pass no law “respecting” the establishment of religion. States and colonies did have established religions and they wanted to make sure the federal government wouldn’t end that.

              It also says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. In other words – well actually the words couldn’t be more clear. Congress is limited (takes a back seat) to my right to freely exercise my religion.

              Like

            12. You truly are a mental midget moron, NO they do not say the opposite you fool. AGAIN, one more time to try to sink this into your ChristoTaliban thick skull ok?

              II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods…

              Let’s take one example of Cocksuckers for Christ violating this shit shall we? Christmas. Cocksuckers for Christ always screaming about a War on Christmas. How Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts will not put Merry Christmas on their holiday cups and you all have a fucking meltdown if some atheist files a fucking suit, or anyone else files a suit against having those dumb ass Christmas Christian chreches around the towns which is in fact? A fucking violation of the separation of church and state laws and rules. Because again? It is a fucking war on Christians and Christmas that the Cocksuckers for Christ cry about. But this is in fact? A violation of what Thomas Jefferson stated, and the rights of us to be free from the Cocksuckers for Christ, or the Pedophiles for Momo the Pedophile Profit, or any other religious fascist scumbags, before you have a right to force your religious psychotic bullshit upon the rest of us.

              And again? James Madison made it very clear when he brought those bill of rights to the Congress and stated:

              “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscious in any manner, or on any pretext, be infringed.”

              And? Cocksuckers for Christ? Constantly seeks to violate this shit, with their laws against lgbts, atheists, and many others.

              And it is far past time? For Christians? To be stood up to and put in their fucking places. YOU are not the top dogs that you assholes think you are. YOU all proclaim how fucking moral you all are, and yet? Millions of you Cocksuckers for Christ are in prison for raping kids, raping women, for murder and all kinds of other crimes. Christians? Have fucking slaughtered millions upon millions in their forced fucking conversion programs. Christians are less moral than fuckimg Muslims are, because at least? Muslims do not lie to us, we know they want to murder us, while you Christians hypocritically proclaim how yours is a religion of love, peace, non-judgment, forgiving your enemies, and all the other bullshit you all spew but never keep.

              Christianity is reponsible for millions being put to brutal deaths, for wars, for Inqusitions, for mass genocides and you know what? I believe all Christians? Should fucking reap back all they have sown to others? And have done unto them as they have done unto Pagans, Jews, Native Americans, women they proclaimed as witches, people they proclaimed as heretics, the scientists Christians put to death, and all the others Cocksuckers for Christ have murdered, brutalized, and persecuted for 1,700 years now.

              Fuck you Christians and Fuck your supposed Christian morality. Pigs have more morals than 99% of you who DARE call yourselves Christians. Hell the ameobas eating the shit from another ameobas asshole in the bottom of one of your redneck Cocksuckers for Christ well used outhouses have more morals than all you Christians combined.

              Like

            13. Really? Then how come the Supreme Court keeps knocking down all those ChristoTaliban laws your psychotic ChristoTalibans keep putting into our laws? Like say DOMA? Or how about the many times you scumbag Christians put forth laws against abortion and the US Supreme Court keeps knocking them down? Yeah, a whole lot of times Christians have tried to force their ChristoTaliban bullshit into our laws and they got their asses handed to them.

              YOU Christians? Are no better than the Muslims. No, you are fucking worse. Cause you all cry like the little twisted hypocrite bitches you are about Muslims installing their sharia laws here in the United States but have no fucking problem wanting to install your ChristoTaliban Sharia laws upon the rest of us.

              And the only good Muslim Taliban and Christian Talibans? Are fucking dead ones.

              So I guess? It is time for your biblical laws to be enforced and we should start with all you Cocksuckers for Christ on your second, or third or fourth adulterous marriages huh? Give you all the stoning death penalty punishment for adulterers that is proscibed in your buybull, like you Cocksuckers for Christ say should be done to lgbts. You know, as you Cocksuckers for Christ sow? So shall you reap and as you all demand be done unto others? The same be done unto you all. Because hey, isn’t that also in your buybull?

              Like

            15. unsurprisingly, Joe is just one more greedy Christian who has to pretend that his religion is the font of everything humane, when that is not the case. It is a shame that a Christian decides to lie when his holy book says not to.

              I looked at the Heritage nonsense and found this “Third, we might mean that the Founders were orthodox Christians. In some cases—for example, Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, John Jay, Roger Sherman, and John Witherspoon—there is abundant evidence that these Founders embraced and articulated orthodox Christian ideas”

              like so many Christians, we have the folks at Heritage trying to define who is and who isn’t a “TrueChristian(tm)”. It’s so quaint to see Christians do this and try so hard to declare that only their version of Christianity is “orthodox”.

              we also have this “Historically, Christian thinkers have taken this and similar biblical passages to prohibit rebellion against civic authorities. However, in the 12th century, some Christian scholars began to allow for the possibility that inferior magistrates might overthrow evil kings. These ideas were developed and significantly expanded by the Protestant Reformers. John Calvin, the most politically conservative of these men, contended that, in some cases, inferior magistrates might resist an ungodly ruler. However, Reformed leaders such as John Knox, George Buchanan, and Samuel Rutherford of Scotland, Stephanus Junius Brutus and Theodore Beza of France, and Christopher Goodman and John Ponet of England argued that inferior magistrates must resist unjust rulers and even permitted or required citizens to do so.”

              This is a great bit to see just how Christians make up their morals and what they want to pretend the bible says when they interpret it to agree with them.

              Liked by 2 people

            16. The “Reformation” was all, and only, about political expediency and who would gets the lion’s share of the take once the Catholic Church was pushed aside. As to the other bit about rebelling against rulers, it’s clearly stated that those who do are rebelling against god, hence the ‘reformers’ were openly rebelling against their own god, c.f., Romans 13:1 ff. which also brings us to the massively hypocritical claim by Christians that the Bible is inspired by God and inerrant and the world must live according to its dictates or be condemned. In the case of the reformation, there is no doubt that all reformers would have to be condemned by god… all the way down to this day! It’s interesting to me that subsequent “democracies” made it convenient for Christians to rebel against duly instituted authority without seeming to do so simply by manipulating the voting systems. Thus do they demonstrate how easily they can fool their “omniscient” god. What a total crock.

              Liked by 2 people

            17. Dumb ass Joe and his ChristoTaliban fascism. Gotta love that mental midget moron. But I bet if Thomas Jefferson walked up to him right now and slapped him in the face and tell him he is wrong? Or James Madison, James Monroe and John Adams all ganged up with Jefferson and beat the shit out of Joe and say he hasn’t a clue what he is talking about? Joe would say that they did not know what they were talking about.

              ChristoTalibans bullshit liars who love to change truth and real history for their lies and fake history like Joe? Are a dime a dozen in the ChristoTaliban Fascist religion.

              Like

            18. I would appreciate it if you would end the name calling. Joe has been commenting here for quite some time, and although we see things differently, we have been human with each other. Ideas, not names and belittling will dismantle faith. Be nice!

              Like

            19. Huh?? Why are you saying Im greedy?

              As for the rest, I’m not sure they meant orthodox in the literal sense of correct belief as much as that it is just what many Christians today believe.

              Like

            20. Of course you are “not sure”, Joe. If you admitted what the sentence says, your claims fail.

              And yep, one more greedy Christian who wants to claim that the only “good” ideas come from Christianity and thatany good action simply *must* have been from his version. I said as much in that post you evidently can’t comprehend “unsurprisingly, Joe is just one more greedy Christian who has to pretend that his religion is the font of everything humane, when that is not the case. It is a shame that a Christian decides to lie when his holy book says not to.”

              Liked by 1 person

  11. I have spent 14 years exposing where the bad people truly are. They certainly are not atheists, nor are they Pagan.

    I have one blog where I have exposed over 10,000 Roman Catholic priests busted for raping children. Some of these perverts have victim counts in the hundreds. Some have raped children as young as six months old. Some raped deaf/mute children. And their leaders? Covered up and protected them. It is estimated that over 500,000 children have been raped, tortured, enslaved, beaten and brutalized and outright murdered since the beginning of the 1900’s in the Churches Industrial Homes and Schools, in their Magdalene and Good Shepherd Laundries, in their Women’s and Children’s Homes and in their First Nation Industrial Schools in Canada.

    Then? I do another blog that has exposed over 30,000 Christian pastors from all denominations busted for raping children. Some of the highlights? Three pastors busted for sex trafficking, one pastor busted for raping an 11 yr old girl on her fathers grave after he held the funeral services for him, and all kinds of other things you do not want to hear about.

    Then? I do a group on Facebook called Christian Pastors of Hate which has exposed tens of thousands of psychotic Christian pastors and preachers and their psychotic followers who love to scream, foaming at the mouth, how lgbts, atheists, Pagans and others should all be put to brutal deaths. And some who have committed these acts.

    Funny though, with as much as these hypocrite ChristoTalibans scream against lgbts? And how they should be put to death according to their buybulls? Try telling one of these cherry picking, buybull thumping, mental midget moron losers that we should then put to death adulterers…if they demand that lgbts should be put to death…and watch them meltdown like the snowflakes they are.

    I say though? It is far past time for Christians to reap all they have sown and have done unto them as they have done unto Pagans, Native Americans, Jews, LGBTS, Atheists, Agnostics, scientists etc. But that is just my opinion. I mean I think if Christians were truly persecuted as they have persecuted others? Then they might take the hint?

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

        1. Schadenfreude, this is a difficult issue, I think. As a Christian, my feeling is to do everything possible to work toward peace, to pursue reconciliation. We love in an awesome world where kindness and love can abound. But, our world is also broken and fallen. It’s paradoxical, really.

          There are times when the military and police may use force to protect innocent lives. I feel that people who commit atrocities need to be brought to justice. However, there is a huge difference in my mind between a last resort use of force to protect innocent lives, to bring justice, and force used to simply execute revenge.

          I think as a civilized society we live by the rule of law and we need to honor that.

          I currently work as a volunteer with refugees and immigrants. Many of these folks have fled from countries where the rule of law has broken down. Criminal gangs do as they please and execute revenge killing with impunity. It is a nightmare.

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply

          1. Our world isn’t broken or fallen. That the lie of your religion. So, no paradox at all. Your god per your bible does only relatiatory revenge, so you seem to have a problem with “do what I say, not do as I do”.

            One has to wonder why your god is so impotent.

            Liked by 1 person

            Reply

      2. Thousand of lgbts are murdered each year in the United States, and around the world, mostly by those who call themselves Christians. It is not just Mulims murdering lgbts, it is also Christians. So let me ask you this Becky, do those who support and defend lgbts to even live, like myself, or lgbts themselves, have any right to defend themselves against psychotic Christians or Muslims hell bent on murdering them? Or should they just lay down and turn the other cheek as a Christian is murdering them?

        Let’s take an example shall we? How would you feel if you witnessed a fellow Christian being beaten first by a gang of lgbts, and then? They place a tire around their body, fill the space where the air goes with gasoline and light that Christian up? When the tire starts to burn? It acts similar to napalm. It melts and sticks to the victims body, burning them. Nothing can put these fires out once they lit up a human being like this. And? Thousands of lgbts in Uganda and Nigeria, thanks to those psycho ChristoTaliban Pastors of Hate, Scott Lively, Matt Barber and others going there and demanding brutal deaths for lgbts.

        Or? How would you feel if some atheist filed a ballot initiative in California, that would allow atheists to walk up to any Christian who is an adulterer, on the street, and pull out a gun and blow their heads off, and base those laws on Old Testament teachings? Similar to Christian attorney Matthew McLaughlins Sodomite Suppression Act Ballot initiative he filed in California, where he wanted Christians to have the right to blow the heads off of lgbts? Bet you all would not like that huh?

        So how about if lgbts, atheists, Native Americans, Africans and others really start doing unto Christians as Christians do unto others?

        Like

        Reply

        1. Friend, I think there is a difference between following the rule of law and bringing justice against evildoers in a way that protects innocent lives and simply taking matters in our own hands to exact vengeance in order to “teach someone a lesson.”

          Retaliatory violence simply breeds more violence and never ends. “An eye for an eye, ” is not the answer. Neither, however, is simply sitting back and doing nothing. But, there are ways to protest and to make a difference that doesn’t involve incitement to violence.

          I don’t know you personally, Militant, and I may be reading too much into your comments. But, I sense that you are heading down a dark path. Prayers that you will turn from this.

          Years ago when I was a student at university, I attended a lecture given by a young activist from South Africa. He spoke of the cruelty of government officials murdering those who protested apartheid by throwing these burning tires around their bodies.

          Then he shared something which was chilling to me and subtly hinted at plans to do the same, to exact vengeance when given a chance. This Scripture came to mind. “Those that live by the sword will die by the sword.” He returned to S. Africa. It was not long after this that he “disappeared.” LIkely murdered, Militant.

          Also, Militant, I hope that you understand that there are many Christian people who do advocate for the rights of gay and lesbian people and are at the forefront of working for justice. There are gay and lesbian priests and ministers of the church.

          All Christian people do not think the same way.

          Like

          Reply

          1. “52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled, which say it must happen in this way?”

            and this: “34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

            35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
            and a daughter against her mother,
            and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
            36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.

            37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.”

            Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense though it does show that Christians have all sorts of various beliefs.

            Liked by 2 people

            Reply

          2. Really? So atheists should continue to lay down to be brutally murdered by Christians and Muslims, and lgbts should also lay down to be brutally murdered by Christians and Muslims. I find your comment interesting. Here we have Christians and Muslims advocating for the brutal murders of atheists, lgbts and others. But that is not the problem of Christians, it is the problem of us atheists, or lgbts or others who are being told by Christians and Muslims we deserve to be beheaded, or thrown off of buildings, or put into concentration camps to die slow deaths, or to be shot in the head, etc. And yet? Christians and Muslism? Do not speak out against these psychopaths who want to use Christianity or Islam to justify their brutal murders of lgbts, atheists and others. It is we atheists, or lgbts or others, who are persecuted by Christians and Muslims who do so. And then? When one of us say that Christians and Muslims should reap back all they have sown and have done unto them as they do unto us? YOU cry how this is wrong?

            YOU ACTUALLY EXPECT us atheists, lgbts and others, under constant threats of death and murder by Christians and Muslims to lay down and do nothing about it, because then? That would make us the evil ones? So, were the AntiFascists who fought Nazis, Hitler, Mussolini and Japan wrong when they fought back against their Fascism? Were they the evil ones who put to death Nazis in that war? Or was it the Nazis who were the evil one and the justification for standing up to their slaughters right?

            So why cannot atheists, lgbts and others do unto Christians and Muslims as they do unto us? Maybe if we did? Christians and Muslims would actually get the hint?

            Let me ask you this. Say a psycho gang of Christians surround a gay man in Uganda like they do. And they beat the hell out of that gay man. And then? They do what is called necklacing, which is what Christians are in fact? Doing to lgbts in Uganda. This is where they put a tire around the persons body, fill the space where the air goes with gas and light them on fire, burning them alive.

            NO lgbts have a right to fight back against this? No lgbt has a right to kill these Christians in self defense? They should just lay down and let these psycho ChristoTalibans beat the hell out of them and murder them in a brutal way?

            Why is it ok for Christians and Muslims to do this to others, but then? Christians and Muslims scream bloody murder if anyone does this to them? Are not Christians and Muslims reaping what they have sown and having done unto them as they do unto others if an atheist or lgbt says enough is fucking enough and I am not going to lay down my life for these mental midget moron psychos and fight back to save their lives?

            Like

            Reply

    2. Be careful. You may end up becoming the mirror image of the Christians you oppose. That said, I understand that you don’t like them, or at least don’t like their religion and its authorities. I don’t blame you, there is a lot of reason to take a harsh approach. The Christians didn’t get to be so prominent by being nice.

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply

      1. I have come to the point where I have had enough of Christians and Muslims hypocrisy. Their hiding behind their religious dogma to justify their brutality and evil against atheists, lgbts and others. Enough is enough. It is far past time for atheists, lgbts and others persecuted by these religious freakshows to say, time to bring it to you hypocrites.

        I will say it this way. We fought the Nazis and other Fascists in our history. Well, it is far past time to fight the fascism of Christians and Muslims and put a stop to all the evil, all the death, all the hate, bigotry and misogyny they have perpetrated upon the world and humanity for far too long. If it means going to war with them to put a stop to it? Then hey, that is what must be done.

        Literally billions have died brutal deaths because of just these two religious ideologies. It is time? We as a human race? Put a damn stop to it. The religious should have no fucking rights over other peoples lives. They should not get to make the laws, or decide who should be put to death under their religious rules. And those that attempt to do so? Should be stood up to their Fascism at all costs. Because this is exactly what it is. Fascism pure and simple.

        Like

        Reply

          1. Bro, I have walked through the valley of the shadow of hell, I have walked through the deepest, darkest abysses you could ever imagine. And I kicked ass and took names and showed not one ounce of fear doing so. I have no fear of the dark,for I have admired the stars far too long to be afraid of the dark. I do what every right and good human being should do, fight true evil, expose it for what it is, stand up to it, and destroy that darkness with the light of truth.

            This is what a True Warrior does, fight the darkness and true evil, without fear, without walking away no matter how hard the fight against evil is. No matter what it costs them. And yes, some have failed and fallen into the abyss. But I am not one of those. For that abyss? Fears me.

            Liked by 1 person

            Reply

            1. I’m hoping after the dust settles he has something to teach us. This is all part of the healing process Zoe.

              Like

            2. Funny how you seem to ignore the things done to people in the name of Christianity, who are now standing up and fighting back. Trauma? Zoe, here, go read the stories on this link. YOU want to read about trauma? Well have at it. This is the trauma faced by those who were brutally raped in churches by Christian priests.

              I present to you? Voices From the Grave: Suicide Victims of the Catholic Church and their trauma’s.

              https://silentvoicesnolonger.wordpress.com/

              And then? Read this one story from my blog Rape Victims of the Catholic Church, and what happened to the boys sent to the Artane Industrial School and realize? This happened at all of them.

              BROTHERS FROM HELL; 10 former Artane Boys Tell of Broken Legs, Torture and Sex Abuse.
              https://rapevictimsofthecatholicchurch.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/brothers-from-hell-10-former-artane-boys-tell-of-broken-legs-torture-and-sex-abuse/

              Then Zoe? Ask yourself if any of these victims or survivors, including myself, have a right to be pissed off and demand justice? When you are denied justice by these very same Christians, hiding behind statute of limitations and sovereign immunity laws to get away with their crimes. Or they are attacked unmercifully by Christians when they come out and speak of the unmitigated horrors that happened to them? They are branded as liars, gold diggers, and all kinds of other evil things by Christians, who are actually? Supposed to be helping them.

              Like

          3. People told me to stop attacking the RCC. That they were just too powerful to stand up to. Well I told them to take that and shove it. And I stood up to these scumbags. Without an ounce of fear. Sure, they did everything to destroy me. They did things to me that would have made most people? Blow their brains out. And yet? Each and every time they did so? I stood up to them and never backed down. I do not do so to even this day. I have no fear of them. What are they? Human beings just like the rest of us, who think they are special, but they are not. And this is what prevents most people from truly dropping their nuts and standing up to these religious psychotic freaks.

            And this is my same attitude when I have gone after these psychotic ChristoTalbian preachers of hate and death, or stood up to Muslims and their psychotic bs. I do not care if you freaking believe in a god. I do not care if you think you are going to justify that you, because you believe in some sky daddy, have a right to put to brutal deaths fellow human beings. No, you do not have that damn right. And if you believe you do? Then you should be squashed like a cockroach. Because that is all you are. A freaking cockroach.

            It is far past time for atheists like myself. To say what needs to be said and do what needs to be done. It is time for all atheists to get off their asses, man up and start fighting back, tooth and nail, the same with lgbts and any other group that comes under vile, disgusting persecutions by the religious. Who the hell do they think they are that those they persecute cannot stand up to them and defend themselves, and our very lives if we must? Bullshit. We have as much right, and even more right to exist, than these psychotic Abrahamists who demand we be put to brutal deaths, or denied all rights because of their bullshit religions.

            If we do not start truly standing up for ourselves against these psychotic Christians and Muslims? Then we only deserve the deaths we get.

            Like

            Reply

            1. You are a fast typer!! We’re not in disagreement on the atrocities committed, but the battle will be won with better ideas and revealing something lost, true, and better. Humanity is calcified. Share some of your vision and knowledge, for in those ideas we can plant doubt. Doubt that the way we’ve been doing things is completely wrong. Confrontation doesn’t work. Ideas do. Like exposing the wisdom of Black Elk and others teach us something.

              Liked by 1 person

            2. We have been fighting this battle for centuries, with education and the spreading of truth. Yet? We are no closer to the real solution. Christians and Muslims? Seem to understand one thing. Force. They forced their religion upon the rest of us under pains of death. To this day? We atheists, and lgbts and others? Are still being put to brutal deaths by Christians and Muslims. When are we to say? ENOUGH IS ENOUGH?How many more atheists, how many more lgbts, how many more must die brutal deaths at the hands of Christians and Muslims?

              Funny isn’t it? How Christians especially? Expect those of us who are atheists, or those of us who are lgbts? To continually turn the other cheek, and never give back to Christians and Muslims what they give unto us. That Christians and Muslims believe, because of their psychotic religious beliefs, that they are justified in their actions against others, especially atheists and lgbts. That they have a right to judge this person or that person worthy of a brutal, horrifying death. But? NO ONE has a right to do the same to Christians or Muslims. Cause then? That is persecuting Christians and Muslims.

              Christians will scream bloody murder if a Muslim murders a Christian. Muslims will scream bloody murder if a Christian murders a Muslim. But with the both of them? Christians and Muslims? They do not give a flying fuck if they brutally murder atheists, lgbts or others according to their religion, and you better not do anything to stand up to them because then? YOU are persecuting them.

              Well I am sick and tired of their hypocrisy. We have tried for centuries to do it the civilized way. Well there comes a time? When you got to take the gloves off and get down into the same dirt as these psychopaths and give unto them? What they give unto others. And while you may disagree with this stance? I do not care. Because we have come to a point in humanity’s history where we either finally and truly stand up to these psychotic Religious freakshows? Or we will vanish.

              Like

  12. Reblogged this on Atheist Militants Rising and commented:
    I have spent 14 years exposing where the bad people truly are. They certainly are not atheists, nor are they Pagan.

    I have one blog where I have exposed over 10,000 Roman Catholic priests busted for raping children. Some of these perverts have victim counts in the hundreds. Some have raped children as young as six months old. Some raped deaf/mute children. And their leaders? Covered up and protected them. It is estimated that over 500,000 children have been raped, tortured, enslaved, beaten and brutalized and outright murdered since the beginning of the 1900’s in the Churches Industrial Homes and Schools, in their Magdalene and Good Shepherd Laundries, in their Women’s and Children’s Homes and in their First Nation Industrial Schools in Canada.

    Then? I do another blog that has exposed over 30,000 Christian pastors from all denominations busted for raping children. Some of the highlights? Three pastors busted for sex trafficking, one pastor busted for raping an 11 yr old girl on her fathers grave after he held the funeral services for him, and all kinds of other things you do not want to hear about.

    Then? I do a group on Facebook called Christian Pastors of Hate which has exposed tens of thousands of psychotic Christian pastors and preachers and their psychotic followers who love to scream, foaming at the mouth, how lgbts, atheists, Pagans and others should all be put to brutal deaths. And some who have committed these acts.

    Funny though, with as much as these hypocrite ChristoTalibans scream against lgbts? And how they should be put to death according to their buybulls? Try telling one of these cherry picking, buybull thumping, mental midget moron losers that we should then put to death adulterers…if they demand that lgbts should be put to death…and watch them meltdown like the snowflakes they are.

    I say though? It is far past time for Christians to reap all they have sown and have done unto them as they have done unto Pagans, Native Americans, Jews, LGBTS, Atheists, Agnostics, scientists etc. But that is just my opinion. I mean I think if Christians were truly persecuted as they have persecuted others? Then they might take the hint?

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

  13. My reply would be to read the rest of the Book of Daniel. It is so obvious that it all pertains to the revolt against Antiochus. It makes some blatantly false prophecies about how things were supposed to go. The whole apocalyptic genre survives on always pushing things further ahead and doing away with the original context of prophecies. If there were any fairness applied, those pushing such prophecies would have been executed when the prophecies failed, as other parts of the Bible demand. Or clapped in chains as malefactors, as other parts of the Bible suggest be done.

    Look at their examples of righteousness, and you will know their standard. They are listed in the New Testament as exemplary too, so I don’t want any complaints. Moses, Abraham, Joshua, Jephthah, David, Elijah, Elisha, Rahab. The last I find particularly offensive. She was a traitor to her own people, in the worst possible way. What “righteousness” meant was whatever was convenient for the Jewish priests that wrote the texts. Can anyone think of people that they would rather be around than the names I listed?

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    1. Your question is a perfect example of why indefinite life spans or immortality are a bad idea, and I favor term limits as well.

      Like

      Reply

  14. Just been reading the “conversation” between you and AMR. Wow. The hate and anger was oozing out of my computer screen. 😬 I hope he makes regular trips to his doctor for blood pressure checks. Seriously.

    Not to discount anything he said or feels, but allowing him to use your blog as a sounding board makes for some pretty difficult reading …

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    1. I hope we’ve come to an understanding. He has an important message buried in there. I think he’ll bring an interesting perspective if you can refrain just a bit. Thanks Nan

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

  15. I’ve only read a few comments (I’m a bit busy today), but I think I know where all the “good” people and the “bad” people are: In our thoughts (good or bad) and judgements (often justified perfusely) about anyone. This one is bad, that one is good… No wonder the idea of a father christmas is so popular and his naughty and nice list! I often say “Sanity is overrated” in reply to what others consider “Normal” behaviour (taking up religions, voting for idiots, eating other sentient beings flesh…). However, I know what real sanity is, and that is questioning our most stressful and angry thoughts, before we propagate yet more violence and horrors, stress and anger upon others.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  16. Folks, I realize this is controversial among Christians. Part of this issue revolves around people’s view of the Bible, and what did Jesus mean when He said that He had come to fulfill the law. I mean there are times when His teaching directly and intentionally contradicted the law. For instance the law teaches an “eye for an eye.” That’s not what Jesus taught.

    If the incarnation is true, Jesus exactly represents the character of God? Then what do we do when we read something in the OT, for instance, that specifically seems to contradict the character and teaching of Christ?

    I think Christian people have come under a strong delusion if they suppose that raping and pillaging a whole nation of people, and stealing their land represents what it means to follow Christ.

    But, you see, people are able to walk in denial and find any excuse for selfish actions. And, we are all susceptible to this in one degree or another. Mimesis, and wanting to be accepted by our culture, our group, is powerful.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    1. I’ve heard it said that after the New Testament we no longer follow the old, then quote verses from the old to support whatever angle they have chosen to believe. If Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, it certainly went by with a fizzle. Even the historians of the day barley noted his existence in passing. It took a while, but Paul was able to capitalize on some delusions of apocalyptic grandeur and the foibles of human psychology. The neat thing about writing several years later is embellishment is impossible to fact check.
      Good morning.

      Like

      Reply

      2. That is another valid side of the argument against Christianity, and it is impossible to refute honestly or intelligently. Only by faith, which translates as denial, can anyone continue “in the faith” after confronting this evidence. I do not rejoice knowing that Christianity is fake and an adjunct of imperialist capitalism. When I was young I wanted so much to give something beautiful and life-affirming to the world and I dreamed of the day I was to receive the Holy Spirit and be given the power to serve without limits. Imagine my surprise and disappointment to realize many years down the road that all I’d dreamed, envisioned and done “in Jesus’ name” I had done on my own and when I abandoned the church, to discover how much more and how much more compassionately, I could do on my own. It was a beautiful dream once, enough to even counteract the call to romantic love. Married to God seemed like the ultimate dream for one’s life. God: the ultimate absentee landlord and no-show lover and husband. Sad but it’s good to be free, at least of that chimera.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

        1. I really liked a comment you made a while back about not being given the promised tools to work with. All these signs that never followed. I remember how stupid I felt after laying my hands on someone in the name of Jesus to heal them then when nothing happened. I believed enough to do it (if that ain’t enough faith nothing is) then the explainers took me for another ride that lasted decades. My bad, but hey, now I know.

          Like

          Reply

          1. Been there and done that, and yes the “explainers” were there to explain the failure. Of course it wasn’t God who failed to show up and do his thing. It was my faith that wasn’t strong enough at times. At other times, it was the very victim I was intending to heal who didn’t really want to be healed. I encountered the same utter vile tripe in many New Age healing sessions as well. Some of us eventually see through the ignoble sharade and quit, go on our own. Forget the laying on of hands, let me give you the money for your treatment, or your prescription or whatever you need and I can afford to share. Then I’m square, with “you” and with my own conscience. The “trick” is to not lie, hide or hoard against another’s need that I have the means to alleviate. The “trick” is to reason and act compassionately. The New Testament synoptic gospels have many wonderful ideas and great promises based on absolutely nothing. Such a religion could just as logically have arisen from the book “Alice in Wonderland.” The call “Off with their heads” and the Cheshire cat’s response, “We’re all mad down here” do seem to fit the bill.

            Liked by 1 person

            Reply

            1. Just 5 short years ago I would have answered with this; “well, you just don’t understand”. It is crazy that the very notion that promises the power and the healing is the exact barrier that prohibits it—then self doubt rules. If I could only touch the hem of his garment, but then, go to, thy faith has made thee whole. What a set up! And few can resist it nor free themselves from it.
              Ya know, I don’t believe the writers stumbled upon this, but someone with a very keen awareness of the foibles of human psychology. I think K’s question a while back was one of the greatest of all time. “Why immediately did they appeal to faith, even with Jesus supposedly standing right there with them? Almost like it was intentional.
              The gurus always place barriers in front of their students. This is the biggest barrier ever placed before humanity, and until we can surpass it, we are not ready to wield the potential we possess. Until then we only get to learn in parables. Maybe there is some wisdom in that.

              Liked by 2 people

    2. Thanks for the new word (mimesis) and I looked it up too! Your comment reminds me of why I used to call myself a failed Christian after I realized no one could “walk” in the literal teachings of Jesus without the 24/7 empowerment of the Holy Spirit who never materialized in my reality. The other contradiction was that to obey the literal commandments of Christ was to categorically go against the law of God. There was but one way to go from that point: out. I won’t be a hypocrite. I won’t pretend and I certainly will never embrace Cheap Grace to slimily slither into God’s heaven with a profession of belief, a tattoo and a password. Irreconcilable differences. It would be so much easier if I could join those who believe there is no God – that would make one less serious enemy to confront.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      1. Sha and Jim, I’m confused. I don’t understand. Are you feeling that if you pray for healing and the person is not healed, this is your fault? Did you feel unworthy as a Christian believer? Do you think grace is a cope-out?

        What do you mean a tatoo and a password?

        Heelllp!!!! I’m getting lost in the thread and wandering in the weeds, here. 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

        1. “Greater works” than what Jesus did, “12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
          Greater miracles would be turning water into whiskey, causing the blind to see, moving mountains (that one doesn’t work) haha, I know, calming seas
          You were promised tools as believer. I believed it. Either there are no true believers, or the Bible lies.
          I just recently had a Christian friend of mine come pray over my dying friend. He commanded him in the name of Jesus to a complete recovery. At the memorial service it was all “god is good” everywhere. He didn’t appear to even feel foolish. Of course he is also one the explainers at a big Christian church here in Washington.
          There are many promises but alas, mere words from a self proclaimed messiah.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

          2. Very powerful, and expressing much truth. But I’m still feeling sad that he is closing down his organization. It sounds like good work, something like the Fair Trade movement.

            I’m reminded of the story about the little girl picking up starfish on the beach and tossing them back into the sea.

            A passerby questioned and even belittled her efforts, and shared there are scores of starfish lying here, you can’t make a real difference. The little girl replied as she released a starfish back in to the water, ” But, I can make a difference to this one.”

            Liked by 1 person

            Reply

        3. Hello Becky – you’re kind of tough hanging in this discussion! OK, admittedly I was delving in a bit of hyperbole with the tattoos and passwords, but if you really have read your bible and your New Testament you will find my comments not so off the wall. Believers are “marked” for salvation by God and the “password” is to “have” Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour without which there can be no entry into the kingdom. So when St. Peter asks the question, “Who do you believe in?” there is only one password: Jesus Christ. Sure, I’m galloping freely across the plains of 4 spiritual laws bibliolatry here but that is how I was taught.
          To your questions… quote: “Are you feeling that if you pray for healing and the person is not healed, this is your fault? Did you feel unworthy as a Christian believer? Do you think grace is a cope-out?
          Answer: Yes – Yes and Yes. As a believer ready to give my very life for my faith, how could I believe otherwise but that the lack of “following signs” was all my fault? How would that not make me feel unworthy and make me doubt my own sincerity? It was either that or rank hypocrisy, the kind I found to be common fare in the Church. How can “grace” not be a total cop-out when a good person can go to hell for one unrepented sin and outright evil doers can enjoy a life of oppressing and debauchery and by the simple expedient of being “born again” believers hold a guaranteed free pass to heaven? If that is not so, perhaps you should go and instruct your evangelical/fundamentalist preachers that they are earning their billions by spouting blasphemies.
          Finally, seeing the corruption and decadence within every aspect of Christianity I concluded that the “king” himself either wants it this way or couldn’t care less because… there is no heaven. It was all a lie concocted by the likes of Paul of Tarsus and perpetuated to this day, on top of billions tortured, burned alive and massacred “for Jesus” while the current batch of Christian sadists and psychopath can’t wait for the final bloody massacre of humanity to be ushered in by none other than their loving Jesus. Why won’t I be part of that? I’m a compassionate being therefore God’s way can never be my way.

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply

          1. Hi, Sha and Jim, well I don’t come from a pentecostal background. But, I have heard this teaching that if we command something “in the name of Jesus” it will come to pass. And, I realize there are certainly teachings of Christ that can be read and understood in that way.

            But, folks on a deeper level, how can this be literally and objectively true.? Can any human command God? And, if it were possible for everyone to be miraculously healed, I mean, there would be no death.. It seems to me rather than to offer up all kinds of speculation, or worse yet cast blame for someone’s lack of faith, we are better to be honest and say that we don’t know or don’t fully understand. On top of illness and heartbreak, how can we lay this additional burden of guilt? It feels very wrong to me.

            Don’t get me wrong, I spend time in prayer and meditation everyday. It can be powerful, but I don’t look at this as a magical panacea. For me, my central meditation is that I would be more conformed to the image of Christ to reflect His love and to be a blessing in the world.

            This is the bottom line for me, not to obsess over every sin and short coming in my life, but to be more myself, and more reflective of God’s love. It is enough, I think that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ, and that He is with us through everything, even our death. And, of course, if the hope of the resurrection is true, all of creation will ultimately be healed and restored.

            In the meantime, we can all be part of the process.

            One positive thing that I think is good to share with people who are struggling with sickness, if they are open to this, is the benefit of eating a whole foods plant based diet, including herbs, the importance of good rest and sleep, exercise, etc.

            This is something found to have benefit to reduce inflammation, and even to reverse chronic diseases such as type two diabetes, and heart disease.. It also has great benefit to reduce CO2 emissions. It’s good for the planet.

            And, BTW, this is all based in objective science and supported by peer reviewed medical research.

            Here’s an interesting link.

            https://nutritionfacts.org/

            I think coupled with a healthy and balanced faith, and prayer which also helps to communicate our caring for people, it’s a real winner. 🙂 It is for me, anyway, folks.

            Liked by 1 person

            Reply

            1. Hi again, you seem to be saying that the sayings, even teachings, of “Jesus” in the NT are not to be taken literally. You also seem to be approaching your own life in a totally secular way, as if you drag God-Jesus into it as a tradition rather than active faith. I.e., you don’t need “them” to make sense of the life you live. I don’t quite know what to make of that although you are not the first “Christian” I’ve encountered who also separates words and deeds from their own private Jesus centered faith; who attend some musty old church just because its traditional and it has nothing to do with their real life. You don’t rely on God but on science and secular values (sorry if that seems repetitive but is worth noting) and you seem to keep a God or a Christ simply because you were ostensibly raised to believe in that? I’m not a hoarder: when I realize I’m dragging something around I don’t need, is useless, or know I’ll never use, I get rid of it. I got rid of Christianity and its God because they were a millstone around my neck. It’s amazing what can be accomplished (of good or bad!) when one is self empowered and does not have to rely on, or check with the slave master to make a decision on how to proceed. Interestingly without God and his religions I have more money and time to “feed, clothe, protect or otherwise help others” then when that time and disposable income went into the church to disappear in leadership maintenance, land deals, new buildings and importation of high-priced American blasphemers preaching their gospel of health, wealth and happiness for believers, and eternal torment in hell for all others.
              At least you do not seem eager to defend a corrupt Christian corporation, so I need to ask, why be part of such a thing? Why not free yourself and go it alone? Two fundamental questions: do you believe in a literal heaven and a literal hell for the dead to be forced into, and no alternative? Do you believe in a divine final judgment for all, no exception?

              Liked by 2 people

    4. I always liked old Yahweh better than Jesus. Even when I first started serious Bible study when I was a kid. I know it might seem strange, but I couldn’t get past the shallowness and hypocrisy in the New Testament teachings. Jesus demands that you forgive your enemies, but threatened and condemned anyone who did not want to listen to his ravings. And when Jesus comes back, he is going to throw all his enemies into a torture pit. Do as Jesus says, not as he does, I guess. To me, it looks at lot like touting “forgiveness” only because the early Christians were in no position to punish their enemies. They had a desire to, but deceived themselves into believing that they “loved” their enemies to excuse the fact that they could not do anything to them. And they eschewed wealth and condemned the rich, but only because they envied the wealthy. They were promised wealth in heaven, if they had no desire for riches, they would not have promised followers any, even in heaven.

      Jesus’ teachings are a guaranteed way to ruin any society that actually follows them. They are completely against nature. I don’t know why people think that is an improvement over the Old Testament laws. Those are brutal, and many of them are pretty useless, but some at least had some practical use. With Yahweh, you know up front that he is a merciless god, cruel, and temperamental. The New Testament tries to conceal this behind platitudes and empty promises. Though I think Yahweh ought to be left to the Middle East. They can keep him and stop shoving their religions on everyone else.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

    5. If you read your Jesus greatest commandment? All Christians would know what to do.

      Matthew 22:36-40: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

      John 13:34: 34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

      If you love your lord your god with all of your heart, all of your soul and all of your mind? Then that would mean you know not only how to love yourself this way? But your neighbors as well. If you proclaim yourself a Christian and have any kind of hate in your heart for anyone? The NT teachings is quite clear.

      1 John 2:9-11: 9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

      Matthew 5:23-24:
      23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

      So above ALL ELSE, even in terms of applying Levitical and Deuteronomy laws? Love must rule above it all. Which would negate the Levitical death laws and many of the other ones. This is why many times you will see the verse of Matthew similar to the one of John, I give to you a new commandment. Some translations and editions omit it. Above all else? YOU as a True Christian? Are to live by the greatest commandment in all that you do.

      Like

      Reply

  17. Hey Becky, here is a question for you. God and Jesus supposedly answers your prayers if they do not go against their will for you right? So hundreds of thousands of us? Were brutally raped in the churches, by Christian priests and ministers. All of us prayed, cried out to god and Jesus to save us from what was happening to us. Not once? Did God or Jesus answer our prayers. Why?

    Why did god and Jesus not answer say the cries, screams and prayers of a 12 yr old girl being brutally raped on her fathers grave by the minister who just held that girls fathers funeral services?

    Why did god and Jesus not answer the cries, screams and prayers of hundreds of deaf/mute children being brutally raped by Christian priests?

    Why did god and Jesus not answer the cries, screams and prayers of tens of thousands of Native American children being brutally raped and tortured in the Christian Industrial Schools they were sent to by being kidnapped by Christians and forced into these schools?

    Why did god and Jesus not answer the cries, screams and prayers of the tens of thousands of children being held as slaves in the Christian Magdalene and Good Shepherd Laundries? Or were being raped, beaten, tortured and brutalized and murdered in the Christian Industrial Homes and Schools? Or all the fetuses being murdered and all the infants and children being raped, starved, brutalized, tortured, beaten and murdered in the Christian Women’s and Children’s Homes?

    If your god is all seeing, all powerful, all knowing? How come he not once? Answered any of the prayers, cries and screams of these innocent children having these horrors perpetrated upon them, in the very churches, where Christians claim god and Jesus are most particulary present, by those who called themselves Christian priests and ministers?

    Where was god and Jesus when my adopted daughter spent almost 9 years being brutally raped, both vaginally and anally, by her Christian father, on a daily basis, with her praying to god and Jesus each time to put a stop to it, but they never answered her prayers? And? With her Christian mother, aunt, uncles and even church members knowing what was going on, but did nothing to stop it. Why did it take an atheist to come into the picture and put a stop to it? Saving this girls life? Funny how no Christian would put a stop to this, but an atheist did huh?

    So where was god and Jesus the night? Three of his Christian priests spent it gang raping me? Even on the very altar of the church? Where was he and Jesus, as I begged them to make these disgusting priests of theirs stop doing what they were doing to me? How come they did not answer my prayers, screams and cries?

    Christians say? God and Jesus does not answer a prayer if that prayer goes against their will. So do we who went through this, and not having our prayers answered then state that God and Jesus actually wanted us to be raped because they did not answer our prayers, cries and screams?

    And what about the thousands and thousands of victims who have committed suicide because of this? God and Jesus did not answer their prayers, cries and screams as the priest or pastors who were raping them. And they then? Came under evil, vile, unmerciful attacks by Christians, insulting them, denigrating them, calling them liars, gold diggers out looking for a payday, or if they were male? Because they had been raped by males? And they did not punch them out? Christians have told them that meant they not only wanted to be raped, they enjoyed it and are homosexuals because of it. So these victims? Blew their brains out, hung themselves or killed themselves in other ways. So then? Christians tell me? That because they committed suicide? Their souls are burning in hell for all eternity, while those who did this to them? All they got to do is ask for their god and Jesus to forgive them and repent and they spend an eternity in heaven.

    See how utterly fucked up and twisted your Christian religion is?

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    1. Sorrow, Militant Athiest. Again, I’m so sorry for your pain and for what you’ve experienced. Thank God that your adopted daughter has you in her life.

      Militant, we don’t always know why God does not respond in a certain way to prayer. As long as God allows free will, people will be able to commit great evil as well as to choose to love and to work toward healing. But, without freedom, humans would be nothing more than like mere robots, not truly human at all.

      If the incarnation is true, then God also knows what it is to suffer and to experience loss. We are not alone in our pain and grief.

      I can tell you that for several years, I worked in Child Welfare. At the time, I felt this was a calling from God. I did everything in my power, Militant, to make a difference and to protect kids from abuse and neglect. I think God works through us to make a difference in the world.

      Militant all the Christian people are not your enemy. In truth, many of them could be your greatest friends and allies if given the chance.

      Prayers and positive thoughts for your healing, Militant, and for you to be able to continue to be a voice for the forgotten and the oppressed.

      Like

      Reply

      1. What about the free will of the child to not be raped by these Christian priests and pastors? Every one talks about Christian free will, but they always seem to claim that free will for those Christians who commit great acts of harm towards others, while forgetting that their victims? Also have free will. And it was the victims free will that was screwed with. So basically? Screw the free will of the rapist of the child, what about the free will of that child to not be raped? And then? These same scum? Hide behind such things as the statute of limitations and sovereign immunity laws to get away with their crimes, attack the victims and deny them justice. And I see it time and time again, disgusting Christians, defending their pedophiles, their pedophile pimps, absolving them for their crimes, while they attack the victims unmercifully when they come out and speak out.

        Funny how God can supposedly answer the prayers of Christians, to find the perfect parking space, find your lost car keys, or do other simple parlor tricks, but when it comes down to the real hard stuff? Your god is a complete and total failure, especially in all these innocent children being raped, tortured and basically soul murdered by Christians and he does absolutely nothing to stop it.

        But hey, he sure does mess with peoples free will as proven in the bible. See numerous times in the Moses story? Pharoh was going to release the Jews, but God messed with his free will and hardened his heart from doing so. So you cannot state that god does not mess with free will of people. But he sure does not seem to want to mess with the free will of those disgusting, degenerate rapists of children prowling his churches, but boy if one of those victims commit suicide because of it? That is when god supposedly gets concerned and sends that persons soul straight to hell, when god would not answer their prayers cause some scumbag was messing with their free will and god thought the free will of the rapist was more important than the free will of the child to not be raped.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

        1. MIlitant, I certainly don’t think that people are separated from God based on suicide. This is a hateful teaching, IMO. How many people that commit suicide are even in their right mind, Militant?

          Like

          Reply

          1. You are missing my point I am making. Whether there is truth to the fact that people who commit suicide go to hell is neither here nor there. But imagine, you are the parent of one of these children who were brutally raped and then committed suicide and you hear this from other Christians? I have talked to many parents of these victims that have been told this and it almost causes them to become suicide victims themselves. Which proves? Christians really do not give a damn who they hurt or cause pain to. They seem to relish this, causing pain. They seem to love seeing the horror in other peoples eyes when they tell them their children are now burning in hell cause they committed suicide, not the fact they killed themselves because some disgusting perverted priest raped them and they killed themselves after. The victim is trashed again, their family suffer again and for what?

            Christians are some of the most disgusting, vile, evil, sadistic people I know. They seem to take great pleasure in their sadistic ways they cause other people pain and suffering.

            Like

            Reply

      2. Would you consider god messed with my free will the night he refused to put a stop to the three priests gang raping me, even on the altar of the church? I would have figured god would have been pissed, those three priests dragging me screaming to the altar, they lay me across it and started to violently rape my ass while forcing me to say Our Fathers and Hail Mary’s. Was not my free will not to be raped important to god? Or the millions of others just like me? Again, it seems your god places more power to those who commit great acts of horror, crimes, mass murder, etc against the innocents, than the innocents harmed by these psycho Christians and Muslims.

        Funny how Christians say that god is pissed that lgbts are being able to now get married so he is causing a whole lot of destruction because of it, but hey, he gives passes to hundreds of thousands of Christian priests and pastors, along with their leaders who were basically Pedophile Pimps, who raped, tortured, brutalized and outright murdered innocent children. And then? Your buybull states it would be better for you to hang a huge millstone around your neck and throw yourself int othe deepest of lakes than to harm a single hair on the head of a child or by your actions drive that child away from the love of god. And? Christians attack the child who is the victim and not the scumbag who victimized the child. Your god is pretty fucked up let me tell you. That he allows these scumbags free will to rape, torture and murder children, while not giving a flying fuck about the free will of those same children. And then? Supposedly punishes that child who goes on to kill themselves, or realizes that this is no god, or there never was…while those who did this to them? Get to supposedly go to heaven? For real?

        And then? You Christians add to it by demanding people like myself become a Christian again? Do you all not actually realize this is like a Nazi telling a Jew to join the Nazi party or a Native American (yes myself) to be a Christian when all you Christians did to us? Are you all for real? Why would we want to worship a god who ignored us as we were getting raped in his churches? Why would we want to worship a god who did not care for us in the least bit? Why should we join back into a religion that showed? It did not give a flying fuck about us? That they would rather have us dead? Because a dead victim? Tells no tales. Or all the attacks we face when we stand up for ourselves against all the harm Christians have done to us? Why cannot you Christians understand any of this?

        But the real hypocrisy of it all is? You all keep telling me that god will judge them once they die and get before him. And then punish them. And because partly of their actions? It made me an atheist? I am judged evil and worthy of hell for all eternity by Christians, because basically? It was Christians and Muslims who proved to me, beyond any shadow of a doubt, by their thoughts, words, deeds and actions? There was no god or Jesus or anything like that. And yet? I am judged more harshly than those who rape, torture and brutalize children in the name of god and Jesus. And get away with their crimes.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

        1. I am not judging you as evil or worthy of Hell, Militant.

          I think these people who rape, torture, and brutalize children should be brought to justice. They need to spend time in prison for these crimes, and also receive mental health help and intervention while they are there so when released it is not likely they will re-offend again.

          Often, but certainly not always, people who sexually abuse kids were also abused as children. Sometimes there is a cycle that presents itself in families lasting through generations.

          Unbelievably, I’ve worked with people who feel that they’ve done no wrong. Or, who will attempt to justify their actions. Sex offenders can also be very, very good at lying and attempting to deceive the Child Welfare worker.

          It is tragic.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

          1. YOU may not be judging me. but understand, this is what I go through almost each and every day from Christians. It was so horrifying and so evil? I had to literally leave Facebook.

            Let me give you a couple of examples of what happens to us who truly fights back about this ok?

            One of my groups on Facebook was Rape Victims of the Catholic Church. A Catholic woman came in and left a comment, telling me? Not only did I deserve to be gang raped again, but I should be beaten to death for speaking the lies (as she called them) about her church. Funny how Facebook did not violate her for what she said to me. But because I posted a comment back saying: No Thanks bitch, I already was gang raped and did not like it? I got banned for 30 days for hate speech.

            When I was standing up to that disgusting, vile, evil Bill Pig Face Donohue of the Catholic League? He would send in his butt buddies to post threatening messages to me. He had one outright post a comment telling me? They were going to come and kidnap me and bring me to Bill so he could torture me. These were outright death threats against me and when I reported them to Facebook? They never violated one of these people, but continually violated me for outright bullshit.

            Now Bill? Actually tried to have me murdered and that is no BS. Even the NY Hate Crimes Squad police detectives who came from NY to my home state to arrest me? Said they were not going to do so because they knew that Bill Donohue was going to have me murdered as soon as I got to Rykers Island. He even bragged he would do so.

            He actually? Got our local prosecutor, who is Roman Catholic and highly involved with the church to come after me, putting my life into a living hell. In the end? This prosecutor and the original judge of the trial? Was disbarred for what they did to me at the behest of Bill Donohue and his Catholic League. So was my housing assistant director, who it was found? Was paid a huge sum of money by Bill Donohue to literally find a reason to kick me out in the middle of winter so I would freeze to death. She got found out for it and fired. This is what we deal with on a daily basis for standing up and doing the right damn thing.

            Many strong survivors go through this on a daily basis. And it is not only by the Roman Catholics. I have helped stand up to the Bob Jones University pedo school, and many others, and we come under constant vile, hateful attacks by Christians who hate what we are exposing about their pedophiles and pedophile pimps.

            I actually worked with one victim of the Bob Jones University pedos. What she went through at the hands and mouths and actions of the Bob Jones people? They all should be in prison for life. This poor girl, through the FBI because we had to get the FBI involved because of the terrorist attacks against her? Found out? She was not legally adopted by this pastor of Bob Jones. she was kidnapped. She was told her parents and brother and sisters had all died. They did not. They had actually been looking for her for decades really. They thought she had been kidnapped, raped and murdered and her body would eventually be found. Then? She dealt with almost 12 years of daily brutality and rapes by the pastor. When she finally got the courage to walk away and then report it to the police? The attacks she came under? Were murderous. They actually tried to murder her. And no one would help her, save? Myself and the FBI. And even though the FBI proved that they had kidnapped her, etc? Due to the statute of limitations? They could not prosecute these scum for their crimes against her. Then? I came under attack by the Bob Jones University crew. They literally stalked me all over the internet, They did three special pages where they screenshotted all of my stuff from Facebook, especially from the groups Ministers Whom Rape Children and Rape Victims of the Roman Catholic Church and then? Trashed me for it. It was insane. the leader of their group is called Psycho Sally and she is called that for a damn reason. You can find her insane, psycho blog and all it does? is attack victims of rape by Christian priests and pastors.

            Again this is what victims and survivors of Christian priest and pastor rape goes through on a daily basis.

            AND IT IS FAR PAST FUCKING TIME THIS SHIT STOPS.

            Like

            Reply

            1. Your experience sounds horrendous. I can’t even begin to imagine it. I can tell you this, Militant. People that are pedophiles look for access to children and young people and places where they can work to groom kids and gain trust.

              They know that institutions such as the church and even organizations like the Boy Scouts can provide this.

              Thankfully in recent years, many churches have begun to wise up to this. My own church practices a policy called, “Safe Sanctuary.” People are not granted access to children without child abuse and criminal background checks. And, even then, there is a policy in place, that no adult can find themselves alone chaperoning or working with a group of kids.

              A few years ago, I was part of a congregation where an elderly gentleman attempted to lure a young disabled girl into a private room to have his way with her. Thankfully, he was immediately observed by an alert usher/security person. The police were immediately called, and it was dealt with right then and there.

              It is sad that this is the reality of our world, but we can’t do enough to protect vulnerable children and adolescents. And, it is doubly tragic and inexcusable for churches or any organization to attempt to minimize and cover all this up rather than to deal with it immediately and appropriately.

              Like

            2. While you are correct, pedophiles look for places to get access to children, but? With all these Christians raping children? YOU are minimizing things about it.

              See for one? These people represent god and Jesus to us. They were our teachers, etc. They were supposed to show us all about god and Jesus. In the Roman Catholic Church schools we are taught that the priests especially? Are god, and Jesus and YOU never doubt or question anything a priest does because that is like questioning god and Jesus. So here are your “spiritual advisors and teachers” who are supposed to be above all else? The most holiest people on the planet.

              Most pedophiles? Rape the body. These scum? Not only rape the body? They rape your soul. They literally steal your soul and destroy it. I am not minimizing what all victims of pedophiles go through. What I am saying is? Here you are, a child, who believes in god and Jesus cause these people taught this to you. That god and Jesus? Answers all your prayers of a child. You are taught that god and Jesus will send guardian angels to surround you should you need it.

              But then? There you are, a child, whether a boy or girl, being raped, tortured and brutalized by the very person who is the teacher of god etc. You are there, crying out to god and Jesus to save you. To stop what is happening to you, in the very church. You were taught that god and Jesus live on that altar, their spirit and the Holy Spirit always resides there and no evil can happen there. That in a church especially? A child only has to ask god and Jesus for help and they will be there for you. But that does not happen. For hours upon hours, you are sodomized on that altar by three priests. One? Was your first communion teacher. They force you to say Our Fathers and Hail Mary’s as penance and tell you over and over again, that if you tell anyone about their special healing, you will go to hell for all eternity.

              Now, I only went through this for one night. I know victims and survivors who went through this on a daily basis, not for one night, but for some? It was years and years and years of this. Again, being done to them by our “spiritual teachers and leaders” and they again, prayed and prayed and prayed for god and Jesus to help them and not once? Did they answer those prayers. Unless? You count the times these children were murdered by their priest or pastor or they committed suicide.

              This again, is not just rape of the body, it is rape of the soul, it is rape of the mind, it is rape of the heart. It literally destroys you, and many of us? Become alcoholics, or drug addicts, and criminals even. Some of us cannot have relationships. Some of us? Cannot even stand to look at ourselves in the mirror at times. We all have horrifying nightmares, I still have mine even 45 years later. Many of us commit suicide. Look up the Children of God sect and see how many of their victims have killed themselves. It is horrifying, but how often do you hear this in the news?

              Tens of thousands who have committed suicide, from all the denominations of Christianity. Imagine it. Try to comprehend this. This is no bullshit. But who truly cries for them from the ranks of Christians? We victims and survivors cry for them. Their parents and loved ones cry for them. But no one else seems to give a flying fuck about it. Because as I said, at least I have heard this from Roman Catholics, “a dead victim tells no damn tales on us.”

              And many of us? Are atheists. And this is something that ALL Christians must understand. There is a reason why many went to become atheists. And this is one of the reasons. So before any Christian condemns an atheist? Or insults, denigrates, defames, belittle, or even threatens harm to an atheist because they do not believe in god?

              Maybe there is a good goddamn reason why? They do not believe in god. And you should show all atheists compassion and love, before any hate or anything else. Most atheists became atheists? Because it was the god believers themselves who proved? There was no god.

              Like

            3. Religions simply keep the good people honest and teaches bad people how to hide their true selves behind a mask of piety and warm phrases, grooming Until the moment is right

              Like

            4. If the only thing keeping you from going out and committing a crime is some sky daddy may punish you? There are far too many examples of those who proclaimed themselves Christians and believed their sky daddy would punish them and then? Committed Crimes Against Humanity and Crimes Against the Children of the World without compunction. Mostly because they were brain-washed by their spiritual teachers and guides to go out and do so. But then? You had the leaders who ordered these things to be done in the name of god and Jesus too while preaching that thou shall not murder, steal, rape, etc lol.

              I would rather trust an atheists morals really. At least they do not base theirs on some damn Bronze Age book of bullshit, lies, contradictions and horror stories that should never be allowed to be read to any child. And the morals taught in that book, especially the Old Testament? Would happily now put most people in prison, or on death row.

              Liked by 1 person

            5. Becky,

              What kind of loving god permits children to be molested in a sanctuary dedicated to its own honor? Shouldn’t the need to conduct criminal background on church members volunteering to serve as child caregivers be an indication that such a god does not exist?

              Liked by 3 people

            6. God is the name given to the cold, dead silence that answers the cries and screams and prayers of a child being raped by a priest or pastor in a church of god.

              If the sincere prayers of a child to god to stop a man of god to stop raping them does not get answered, what does taht say about god?

              Liked by 1 person

  19. Sha, I’m not seeing a division between the secular and the sacred. For me, all truth is ultimately God’s truth. So, if science is showing us useful things or we’re able to see positive things coming from indigenous cultures that we can learn from, my faith in Jesus Christ does not lead me to reject these things, but instead to embrace them. It’s all connected for me.

    I certainly think it would be possible for someone to follow Christ and not be part of the institutional church. But, not all churches are the same. I feel like a healthy community of faith can be very powerful and supportive. For instance, my church is very active in the community supporting things such as the local homeless shelter, the food bank, ministries addressing world hunger, the fair trade movement, etc. I’m also part of a group of people in the congregation that comes alongside people struggling with things like grief or loss. The church also houses and supports groups like AA or even the Scouts.

    We also can encourage and support each other in our own faith in Jesus Christ as part of a caring community. Sure we’re not perfect by any means, and certainly, there are problems, but I think we are heading in a good direction.

    On the other hand, I would not be part of a congregation that I thought was toxic and abusive with an authoritarian type pastor who elevated his/her own opinions as the “word of the Lord. ” This is the sure recipe for a cult, IMO.

    Relating to your last question, on the deepest level, I think Heaven is a way of speaking of being in the presence of God eternally, and Hell is a way of expressing the absence of God. Either way, I believe it’s part of God’s love and care that He allows human freedom and choice. No one will be forced to participate in the Kingdom, so to speak.

    This is a verse of Scripture that totally speaks to me.

    ” For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    Anyway, I’ve appreciated talking with you Sha. Will be off the computer for awhile. Thank you for sharing and for the gift of your time.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    1. There is no free will in Christianity. NONE. Free will means? The ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

      Let’s see an example of what True Free Will is.

      We most often think that an agent’s free actions are those actions that she does as a result of exercising her free will. Consider a woman, Allison, who is contemplating a paradigmatic free action, such as whether or not to walk her dog. Allison might say to herself, “I know I should walk the dog—he needs the exercise. And while I don’t really want to walk him since it is cold outside, I think overall the best decision to make is that I should take him for a walk.” Thus, we see that one reason we care about free will is that it seems necessary for free action—Allison must first decide, or choose, to walk the dog before she actually takes him outside for his walk. If we assume that human actions are those actions that result from the rational capacities of humans, we then see that the possibility of free action depends on the possibility of free will: to say that an agent acted freely is minimally to say that the agent was successful in carrying out a free volition or choice.

      Various philosophers have offered just such an account of freedom. Thomas Hobbes suggested that freedom consists in there being no external impediments to an agent doing what he wants to do: “A free agent is he that can do as he will, and forbear as he will, and that liberty is the absence of external impediments.” In An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, David Hume thought that free will (or “liberty,” to use his term) is simply the “power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will: that is, if we choose to remain at rest, we may; if we choose to move, we also may.… This hypothetical liberty is universally allowed to belong to everyone who is not a prisoner and in chains.” This suggests that freedom is simply the ability to select a course of action, and an agent is free if he is not being prevented by some external obstacle from completing that course of action. Thus, Hobbes and Hume would hold that Allison is free to walk her dog so long as nothing prevents her from carrying out her decision to walk her dog, and she is free not to walk her dog so long as nothing would compel her to walk her dog if she would decide not to.

      However, one might still believe this approach fails to make an important distinction between these two related, but conceptually distinct, kinds of freedom: freedom of will versus freedom of action. This distinction is motivated by the apparent fact that agents can possess free will without also having freedom of action. Suppose that before Allison made the choice to walk the dog, she was taking a nap. And while Allison slept, there was a blizzard that moved through the area. The wind has drifted the snow up against the front of her house so that it is impossible for Allison to get out her front door and walk her dog even if she wanted to. So here we have a case involving free will, because Allison has chosen to take the dog for a walk, but not involving free action, because Allison is not able to take her dog for a walk.

      Whether or not one can have freedom of action without free will depends on one’s view of what free will is. Also, the truth of causal determinism would not entail that agents lack the freedom to do what they want to do. An agent could do what she wants to do, even if she is causally determined to do that action. Thus, both Hobbes and Hume are rightly characterized as compatibilists.

      Even if there is a distinction between freedom of will and freedom of action, it appears that free will is necessary for the performance of free actions. If Allison is brainwashed during her nap to want to walk her dog, then even if no external impediment prevents her from carrying through with this decision, we would say that her taking the dog for a walk is not a free action. Presumably, the reason why it would not be a free action is because, in the case of brainwashing, Allison’s decision does not arise from her free will. Thus, it looks like free will might be a necessary condition for free action, even if the two are distinct. In what follows, the phrase “acting with free will” means engaging in an action as the result of the utilization of free will. Use of the phrase does not deny the distinction between free will and free action.

      So how can you say that the Christian concept of Free Will is actual Free Will? Free will means the ability to make a choice, without coercion. That there is no reward or punishment for a free will choice. But in Christianity? There is no absolute free will. YOU are damned if you do not make the choice to believe in your god and Jesus or your Christian teachings. YOU are told if you do not choose this way? YOU are doomed to an eternity in hell. This is coercion to believe in what you teach. YOU are coerced into believing because if you do not? Then you are punished for it. YOU did not make the free will choice to choose to worship your god freely. YOU made your choice to believe and worship this god because you were told if you do not? YOU will go to hell. So you are in fact? Coerced into believing by threats of violent, eternal punishment. Again, this is NOT a true free will choice, this is a choice where a gun is held to your head and you are told either you believe what we are telling you or we will pull the trigger. Who in their right mind is not going to tell the person I believe in what you are saying cause I sure do not want you to blow my head off if I do not.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

        1. Freewill is mostly an illusion. We like to think we’re in charge, but who gets to choose their parents style, their neurology or their mental health, let alone getting to choose what they were exposed to since birth, inflicted on with deception, opinion and indoctrinated well before learning to talk? Coerced to conformity or face punishment for cultural expectations at every turn, simply put, none of those things were our choice, now one day we erase it all and we’re our own man, while we remain in the approval of our beliefs that weren’t ours to begin with?

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

          1. If you want to argue this from a single life, single physical plane, then you are correct, there is no free will here. But when I address the topic I choose a much broader canvass to work on. Earth is less than a speck in the Cosmos. For the “truly” cosmic being, a physical life is like a commute, something that necessarily must take place between the real point of the exercise. I’m commuting on a busy freeway and there is gridlock, but that isn’t the main story. I can have free will at the end of this ride, and I can use this ride to hone my temperament and my ‘tude towards those other drivers. Sure, some may talk and act as if this commute was all of life but since I know better, I have to practice being “better” at it. Peggy Lee once sang a song: “Is that all there is?” with a rather defeatist theme. No, it’s not all there is, it never is. I have free will if not free choice.

            Liked by 1 person

            Reply

            1. Let’s assume for a moment that you are correct, and I agree to a point. For the everyday person mumbling through life, without at least a glimpse of the big picture, these efforts to “hone” for temperament usually only last until the next mental eruption and frustration. If the entire exercise is us being acted upon, what’s to change that after we die?

              Liked by 1 person

            2. I am well aware of that problem,Jim but I speak as one who has seen through the programming and rejected it. So it’s all up to me now: that’s the free choice. It’s my free choice-all the time. Before I can change that I have to agree with myself that is what I want. That gives me time to reason my next move. I can no longer use the standard Bill Cosby excuse, the Devil made me do it. Self responsibility from self empowerment. A”normal” person can mentally grasp the concept but only a self empowered one can make it work on demand. A huge part of this process entails having a clear and present sense of personal purpose that overrides all other desires or needs. I learned that from the Teachers, not from reading about or observing Earthian ways so I don’t know how others arrive at similar awareness of their own power.

              Liked by 1 person

            3. I think you missed the meat of the question. “ If the entire exercise is us being acted upon, what’s to change that after we die?”Just curious if you have any insights? Is it another case of flying above the madness in an infinite happening?

              Like

            4. Quote: “I think you missed the meat of the question. “ If the entire exercise is us being acted upon, what’s to change that after we die?”Just curious if you have any insights? Is it another case of flying above the madness in an infinite happening?
              Ok, I’ll try approaching it from a different angle. Your statement, (part one:) “if the entire exercise is us being acted upon”. Yes, to the programmed it is always being acted upon. Doesn’t matter if it’s God, the bible, Darwinism, science, banksters, Trumpism… whatever holds sway over our lives forces us to respond accordingly. No choice because “they” have all the power. Oh sure, one can switch allegiance from God to Money to Politics to Philosophy to science and technology; from believing to not believing, but it’s always the same programming and the same reaction. No free will, no free choice. (part two:) “what’s to change after we die?” Answer: nothing. Nothing can change. The programmed remain within the programming. That’s real karma: the endless hamster wheel – unless one discovers the trick of annihilation and terminates forever. “Entity XYZ has terminated, sir.” “Very well, expunge all records.” And that’s it. But it does not happen automatically at death as some like to believe. That’s not the set-up. Sentient life is precious for those who live off of its pain and suffering and it really is, “as below, so above.” We know all about our own psychopaths on earth but where did they get their addiction from? From the programmers. Psychopaths rule religions, states, banks, militaries, scientific experimental labs because they are the lowest class of oppressors that keep the machinery of oppression working. Oppression is their food and their payment for serving the masters. Who are the masters and where are they? That’s a key question. Unfortunately the answer to it is not accessible, i.e. it isn’t “believable” to a programmed mind.
              I could say, they are called “Time Lords” and they invaded this universe billions of years ago. I could say there is a major Time Lords headquarters somewhere in the area of the Orion constellation. I could say that the Hebrew god YHWH is one of millions of mini-servants of the Time Lord hierarchy and empowered by them. I could say that Lucifer, a woman, was a leader of a rebel alliance against the Time Lords, and like so many others, was defeated. I could say we are nearing (relatively speaking) the end of Time Lord rule, hence the end of time and of all measurement due to entropy.
              None of that can mean a thing to anyone operating under the delusion of the programming. To realize the meaning of free will one has to break free of the “faith factor” (believer) programming. People put faith in whatever force or power they feel a need for. Someone who has decided that “god” does not exist will then switch allegiance to a different deity, only s/he will not see it as a god but as some philosophy, institution, event; a new way or old (such as hedonism, so common today) and the hamster wheel remains in full spin and might even spin faster.
              These are my insights. I know it is not an escape flight above “the madness in an infinite happening.” It will end, and “we” will move on to other fields of endeavour after we’ve engineered the rebuilding of our worlds and our universe. After we’ve reclaimed our own sanity and rediscovered our real power as ISSA beings. After we break out of the programming the future belongs to us as human beings but as long as we continue to accept the “inevitability” of “it is what it is” we have no future, just endless cycles of pain, sorrow, loss in pointless shortened lives and equally pointless death. It is meaningless to say it but I’ll say it anyway: there really is a future for us and not just for “future” generations. We are so close now to entering our own state of liminality, we may even be in it. If we are, our real war for freedom is just beginning. (I always wonder when I give words to these thoughts whom will I meet in the rebel alliance of Earth?)

              Liked by 1 person

        2. The double-speak by Christians on the topic of free will is both insane and never ending bullshit. I have spoken about it before to even Christians on here about free will. One example I gave was about us who were raped by Christian priests and pastors as children. When I talk to these Christians about our free will right to not be raped by these Christian priests and pastors? They do not care about that. They come back and say typically? That the priest or pastor who did this to us? Had a free will choice to either rape us or not. Well ok, that is the free will choice of the pedo pervert, but again, what about our free will right to not be raped by these scumbags and have our lives destroyed. And then? What about all the victims who committted suicide over this? Wasn’t their free will messed with in such a horrifying way that they decided they could not take the pain any longer and killed themselves? And was it not the pedo priest or pastor who messed with that child’s free will? And was it not their actions that caused this victim to go out and blow their brains out? And they will typically come back and tell me that the victim had a free will choice to not kill themselves, so if they are in hell for it? That is their fault.

          BUT IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THESE PEOPLES FREE WILL WERE MESSED WITH.

          Like

          Reply

      2. There are many parts of the Bible that go against free will. Paul’s theology in particular, as well as the Gospel of John. I don’t think free will was even an issue to the Old Testament writers. Certainly there was no “respect for free will” in the Old Testament, Yahweh makes people do things and deceives people quite a bit. I suspect that free will became so important to Christians so they could blame most people for being deficient in the eyes of Christian clergy and their dogmas. Otherwise, it comes off as unjust that people would be condemned for their innate natures, and for doing what they were preordained to do. Other Christians just bit the bullet and proclaimed some form of predestination, while still claiming this to be perfectly fair and benevolent.

        The first religion to have “free will” as a core point was Zoroastrianism, to my knowledge. If you look around, you won’t find “free will” as a major philosophical dilemma in many cultures. It has been one in “the West” for a few centuries” because the Christian clergy and theologians harped on it so much. In our own past, “free will” was not much of an issue either. You don’t see it discussed much, if at all, in the “pagan” writers of Greece, Rome, or Egypt. It does not feature as a theme in the old poetry of the Celts or the Germanic peoples. Same with evolution. Introducing the theory of evolution did not cause a culture war in China or Japan, like in did in Europe and the US. In the past, there were already ancient thinkers that recognized a similarity or even kinship between humans and other animals. It was not all that controversial an issue. Celsus, Plutarch, Porphyry, and Aristotle all wrote about intelligence, social organization, and even rationality in animals. Celsus even argued that animals could be closer to the gods than humans, something that Christian opponents found completely incomprehensible.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

      3. I can share my own experience in this. I came to faith based on what I felt was truth, and was more motivated by the love of God. I don’t see the gospel like a “fire escape.” There are many ways that the atonement of Christ is conceptualized and explained by the church. I think it’s as much connected with healing and reconciliation as it is forgiveness, even more so.

        For me, the whole point is to be made more like Christ in terms of love and wholeness, to be more fully human. But, people can refuse this, or perhaps not see their need. Some would choose to go their own way for many reasons. To use an analogy, if one knowingly rejects the cure is the physician automatically to blame?

        However, I can see some truth in what others are sharing. We are conditioned/influenced by culture and by our own experiences. In that sense, no one is completely free.

        Young kids who are abused are often not free to escape their horrendous circumstances, and I know there can be emotional and spiritual scarring that is there for decades.

        However, on a deeper level, as an adult, someone does have a certain level of choice to open themselves to help and healing.

        What makes the difference in people, who have been sexually or physically abused, that some can go on and lead loving and whole lives, while others go their whole life consumed by bitterness and hatred, perhaps even self – hatred, ending in suicide. or in other methods of self destruction, addictions…?

        Conversely, I’ve also seen people who are sex offenders, for many this is an addiction, come to genuine repentance, become open to help and change, be willing to make restitution, etc. while others live in denial, re offend, and go on in this pattern for decades.

        Militant, how do you think people that are Christian believers can best show love and caring and support to people who have been abused? What can we do to make the most difference in your opinion?

        Like

        Reply

  20. Ron, I’m almost losing track of where these comments are. The thread is getting pretty long. The necessity of having background checks and safety protocols for childcare workers even in the church does not say to me, “There is no God.” But, it does speak to me of the reality of fallen human nature, and for the need of healing and forgiveness.

    Like

    Reply

    1. the reality of fallen human nature — Becky, human nature is what it is. It’s not “fallen” any more than a baby is “fallen” when it takes its first few breaths of life. That’s nothing but BS taught by people who want to make you and every human feel inferior. Their ultimate goal is for you to depend on them to direct you to a “far greater truth” than what you instinctively know within yourself is true

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      2. Well, Nan, it does seem to me that any teaching of the Christian church can be twisted in a way and used for evil.

        I have absolutely no doubt that what you say is true. There are leaders in the church that may want to do exactly as you suggest. But, looking at this in another way, the teaching related to human fallenness is balanced by the notion that we are also “fearfully and wonderfully made,” created in God’s image, and here for a real purpose.

        For myself, I was not “brainwashed” or conditioned into this insight. It is something that I can observe just by looking at the world around me, and even in my own life. Obviously, it is not good if people are made to perpetually feel guilty, obsessing over every shortcoming. But, Nan, there are people, for instance, in prison for molesting kids who desperately need to be able to objectively examine their own lives and come to honest repentance which could lead to an amendment of life.

        I also think that when someone is able to admit their own sins and shortcomings, they are also much more likely to be willing to forgive others. They can become less judgemental and more compassionate. I’ve seen this in my own life and experience.

        Again, can this teaching of the church be abused, used for nefarious purposes and come out of balance? Of course, it can.

        But, hey, I think it’s not good to simply ditch the baby with the bathwater.

        Nan, know that we’re not likely to agree, but appreciate the honest pushback. 🙂

        Liked by 2 people

        Reply

    2. Ah Becky, back already? 😉 I’ve read two of your recent comments and I’m honestly shaking my head. You are asking atheists – many of whom left Christianity in disgust – as did I though I am more of a “reverse” atheist – what Christians should do? Quote: “Militant, how do you think people that are Christian believers can best show love and caring and support to people who have been abused? What can we do to make the most difference in your opinion?”
      Obviously, as Christians, LIVE by the COMMANDS of your Jesus Christ, particularly focusing on the gospel according to Luke. Live exactly as you are told to and let THAT be the light to the world. Sell your possessions, give the proceeds to the poor. Express compassion to all and sundry making no distinction of class, race or belief. Love unconditionally (same as compassion, that). Be fully willing, moment by moment, to literally give your life for another. But why are you asking non believers what believers should do? Why not ask your God? Challenge him. And if he does not answer, what then? Do you send him packing, or do you strap in for the ride of a lifetime using the teachings in front of you? Friend, you have all the information you require to fly your spaceship free of religious constraints and anyone else’s advice- may I suggest you use that? Another suggestion: stop apologizing for Christianity. As an institution it’s fully in league with all the other corruptions of the world and wholly anti-Jesus.
      A reminder: “Mt. 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do
      to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
      Mt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and
      broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter
      through it.
      Mt. 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life,
      and only a few find it.
      Mt. 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s
      clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
      Mt. 7:16 By their fruit you will recognise them. Do people pick grapes
      from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
      Mt. 7:17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree
      bears bad fruit.”
      There’s the answer to our question. (and my sincere apologies to Jim for my lengthy comments – blame the French in me! We would never use just one word where ten will do.)

      Like

      Reply

    3. Becky, do you know how hard it is for victims of rape by Christian priests and pastors to obtain justice for the crimes committed against them? Most victims hide what happened to them for decades, some? NEVER reveal what happened to them. But when they finally do? What happens to them.

      Well the first hurdle is the statute of limitations, which is almost always used by those who raped these children. And? Any legislative body that attempts to do anything in changing these statute of limitations to open a window for victims to obtain justice? The church leaders come out in droves and as they been described by those who come under attack by them? Mafia type tactics to put a stop to those changes of statue of limitations.

      The second hurdle? The pew polishers of each church? Of each and every denomination? Attack the victims. This not only happens with Roman Catholic victims, but victims from all the different denominations. Some of these churches? Force the victim to stand in front of the congregation and state they were lying and apologize for harming the pastor with “false accusations”. The pew polishers will circle the wagon most of the time, around the accused pastor or priest, and not the victims. The victims are? Typically trashed. Some examples? You are a liar, a gold digger, out looking for a payday. You waited to just jump on the accusation bandwagon, you were never raped, you just want money.

      The third hurdle is the leaders of all the denominations themselves. While it changes sometimes? 90% of all the leaders revealed of having participated in the cover ups of these rapes of children? Are never fired, are never arrested and prosecuted and allowed to go scott free, like the pervert priest or pastor who raped the kids. With the RCC? These leaders go to the Vatican and hide behind their sovereign immunity laws.

      If Christians truly want to prove they are doing something about these people? It is not enough to initiate and use rules for background checks, etc. NO, it also means that all the pew polishers must stand up and demand that any and all leaders who protected these pedophiles? Be kicked out of the church, arrested and prosecuted for their crimes. Same with any and all pedo priests and pastors. And? All pew polishers must stand with the victims in seeking justice for them. You all must stand with us as we fight the changes to the statute of limitations and end the sovereign immunity rules that allows these criminals to get away with their crimes.

      And also yet? Even with all these supposed new rules Christian churches initiated? Dozens of priests and pastors are still being busted each month for still? Raping children.

      To do anything less? Proves otherwise to the victims and survivors.

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply

    1. No worries. He has been here off and on a while now. He is impervious to contradiction—through faith, of course. It’s amazing how much effort goes into explaining the simplicity of the gospel. He is Chief Conundrum, of I-Wanna-Be tribe.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

  22. Isn’t it interesting how that Michael from the blog Shadow to Light just trashes me? Funny too how I have posted about a half a dozen comments on his BS postings about us atheists supporting pedophiles and how that fascist will not allow the proof of who the real pedo defenders are, Christians. But that is usual for people like Michael and his psychotic blog Shadow to Light.

    Yeah, I do in fact say? That Christians deserve to reap back all they have sown and have done unto them as they have done unto us Native Americans, atheists, lgbts, and many others. But of course? Christians feel they got every freaking right to demand the brutal death penalty punishments for us atheists, or for lgbts, or others, but NO ONE should ever call for the same be done to Christians huh? Cause hey, that is hate against Christians and we should NEVER speak about the hate that Christians spew on a daily freaking basis against others, because then? That is persecuting Christians.

    Michael and his blog Shadow to Light? Is a typical ChristoTaliban Fascist blog, where he can spew all his ChristoTaliban lies he wants and then? Blocks anyone who dares truly challenge his lies with actual, real truth. And then? He gets bent out of shape when some atheist like myself? Throws back all the nasty, disgusting comments he and his fellow psychotic pathological lying ChristoTaliban spew against atheists? Why they again? Meltdown and piss and shit their Jeebus the Dead Jewish Zombie diapers and cry how we atheists are picking on them.

    Well Michael and all your fellow psychotic ChristoTaliban freaks of your blog Shadow to Light? Don’t like me? Too bad and so sad. Suck it up and deal with it. Because it is far past time an atheist like myself comes along and gives back to you ChristoTaliban what you give unto us atheists and have all you ChristoTaliban reap back what you sow unto us atheists. So don’t like it Michael? Fuck off and die.

    Like

    Reply

  23. I LOVE all the excuses you make Joe for all the Crimes Against Humanity that Christians have committed in their history and how YOU justify it. And then? Cry about how Christians are persecuted huh? Funny. Christians have no problem persecuting others, but don’t you dare do unto them as they? Do unto you.

    Who were the real savages Joe? The Christians proclaiming theirs was a religion of peace and love, of non-judgment and forgiveness, brutally slaughtering the Native Americans? Or was it the Native Americans fighting back against the invasion of the ChristoTalibans?

    Why is it that Christians can literally force their damnable religion upon others and no one should DARE stand up to them?

    And then? In your Christian hypocrisy? You all decry how the Muslims or Obama was going to install Muslim Sharia law here in the states and you all screamed NO SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE DOES NOT ALLOW MUSLIMS TO DO THAT, BUT GOT NO DAMN PROBLEM WHEN YOU CHRISTIANS VIOLATE THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE AND ATTEMPT TO PUSH YOUR OWN? CHRISTOFASCIST TALIBAN SHARIA LAW UPON THE REST OF US.

    HOW ARE YOU CHRISTIANS ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE MUSLIMS IN THIS?

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  24. Joe

    YOU can lie about Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, James Monroe, Thomas Paine, and all the rest you want to. That is all you Christians do insisting they designed our laws, our Constitution on your psychotic ChristoTaliban religion of hypocrisy.

    Jefferson? Shredded the Christian bible and invented his Jeffersonian Bible, Ever hear of that one? Yeah, he cut out all the miracles, all the other BS he thought? Was complete and utter BS in the bible. Maybe you ought to read up about that.

    Now let’s see what Thomas also said on the subject shall we?

    Jefferson wrote voluminously to prove that Christianity was not part of the law of the land and that religion or irreligion was purely a private matter, not cognizable by the state. (Leonard W. Levy, Treason Against God: A History of the Offense of Blasphemy, New York: Schocken Books, 1981, p. 335.)

    Jefferson, who as a careful historian had made a study of the origin of the maxim [that the common law is inextricably linked with Christianity], challenged such an assertion. He noted that “the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced or that such a character existed …. What a conspiracy this, between Church and State.” (Leo Pfeffer, Religion, State, and the Burger Court, Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1984, p. 121.)

    The most revealing writings concerned the commonly repeated maxim that Christianity was part of the common law. In two posthumously published writings, an appendix to his Reports of Cases Determined in the General Court and a letter to Major John Cartwright, Thomas Jefferson took issue with the maxim. He traced the erroneous interpretation to a seventeenth-century law commentator who, Jefferson argued, misinterpreted a fifteenth-century precedent. He then traced the error forward to his favorite bête noire, Lord Mansfield, who wrote that “the essential principles of revealed religion are part of the common law.” Jefferson responded with a classic, positivistic critique: Mansfield “leaves us at our peril to find out what, in the opinion of the judge, and according to the measures of his foot or his faith, are those essential principles of revealed religion, obligatory on us as part of the common law.” (Daniel R. Ernst, “Church-State Issues and the Law: 1607-1870″ in John F. Wilson, ed., Church and State in America: A Bibliographic Guide. The Colonial and Early National Periods,” New York: Greenwood Press, 1986, p. 337. Ernst gives his source as Thomas Jefferson, “Whether Christianity is Part of the Common Law?”)

    It was what he did not like in religion that gave impetus to Jefferson’s activity in that troublesome and often bloody arena. He did not like dogmatism, obscurantism, blind obedience, or any interference with the free exercise of the mind. Moreover, he did not like the tendency of religion to confuse truth with power, special insight with special privilege, and the duty to maintain with the right to persecute the dissenter. Ecclesiastical despotism was as reprehensible as despotism of the political sort, even when it justified itself, as it often did, in the name of doing good. This had been sufficiently evident in his native Virginia to give Jefferson every stimulus he needed to see that independence must be carried over into the realm of religion. (E. S. Gaustad, “Religion,” in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1986, p. 279.)

    So Joe? YOU keep insisting on living in your lies that Jefferson and the rest? Based the laws and Constitution on your disgusting, vile brutal, evil ChristoTaliban religion of forced conversions, mass genocides, mass exterminations, mass tortures of others, and of course? OUTRAGEOUS CHRISTOTALIBAN HYPOCRISY WHICH MAKES MUSLIMS LOOK LIKE BOY SCOUTS.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  25. Joe, I guess you lied in saying the Founding Fathers praised Christianity huh?

    Thomas Jefferson said the following about it.

    “Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.” (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782)

    “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” (Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802)

    “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter…. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away [with] all this artificial scaffolding.” (Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823)

    “And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions. … error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. … I deem the essential principles of our government . ..[:] Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; … freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus, and trial by juries impartially selected.” (Thomas Jefferson, “First Inaugural Address,” March 4, 1801)

    “In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes. “(Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814)

    “I will never, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others. “(Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803.)

    “Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority. But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises, which the Constitution has directly precluded them from. It must be meant, too, that this recommendation is to carry some authority, and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion. And does the change in the nature of the penalty make the recommendation less a law of conduct for those to whom it is directed? I do not believe it is in the best interests of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct its exercises, its discipline, or its doctrines; nor of the religious societies, that the General Government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting and prayer are religious exercises; the enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times of these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands, where the Constitution has deposited it. (Thomas Jefferson, just before the end of his second term, in a letter to Samuel Miller–a Presbyterian minister–on January 23, 1808)

    “History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.” (Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Baron von Humboldt, 1813)

    “The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.” (Thomas Jefferson, as quoted by Saul K. Padover in Thomas Jefferson on Democracy.)

    Jefferson expressed himself strongly on that larger apocalypse, the Book of Revelation, in a letter to Alexander Smyth of 17 January 1825: it is “merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.” Apocalyptic writing deserved no commentary, for “what has no meaning admits no explanation”; therefore, apocalyptic prophecies associated with Jesus deserved and would receive no attention from Jefferson in his Life and Morals of Jesus.

    I have ever judged of the religion of others by their lives…. It is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read. By the same test the world must judge me. But this does not satisfy the priesthood. They must have a positive, a declared assent to all their interested absurdities. My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolt those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Mrs. M. Harrison Smith: Mrs. M. Harrison, August 6, 1816.

    Across the ages, clergy have been interested [according to Jefferson] not in truth but only in wealth and power; when rational people have had difficulty swallowing “their impious heresies,” then the clergy have, with the help of the state, forced “them down their throats.” Five years later, he [Jefferson] wrote of “this loathsome combination of church and state” that for so many centuries reduced human beings to “dupes and drudges.

    So hey Joe, it looks like you screwed up when you stated? Your BS about Thomas Jefferson huh? Cause it sure does not look like? He really supported or defended your psychotic ChristoTaliban religion.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

Leave a comment