Working their way back to Jesus by reading old theists, the New Theists© are determined to true the tried and failed—like running the hamster wheel backwards will make a difference. But no worries, it hasn’t gone far. Just superficial arguing.
While theism is belief in god, atheism is simply pointing out how that’s not The Way by its perpetual stall. We’re on our own here which is proven daily. The trick is to break the spell of faith as a destination and drop the dead weight that has kept humanity—waiting.
Each new generation inherits a deeper pool of contradictions to proudly buoy their faith. Then with the mental fortitude of a champion juggler, prove they can believe against all odds.
Not so long ago Christianity began its final, divisive act. Not against the unbeliever (far too watered down now for that) but against each other. Every man creating his own doctrine and defining his own god and idol. “A multiplication of beliefs acts as a division of belief; and in proportion as anything is divided it is weakened”—Thomas Paine
Every Christian seems to know the others are believing it wrong. Maybe it’s time to realize themselves are included. But that is the way of the church—it’s what happens when starting with an errant premise.
“Religion, by such means, becomes a thing of form, instead of fact—of notion, instead of principles“—Thomas Paine
Faces in the fires
TheCommonAtheist 
Secular spiritualism is the new shit to baptise the souls of the sentient.
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But really people are religious, not spiritual. But that’s not what they think.
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That’s something that’s always kinda got me… I’m not religious though I am spiritual. I quite enjoy indulging the irreligious movements and thoughts. Critical thought, hypotheticals, being the devil incarnate – oh shit, I mean devils advocate.
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It is quite telling that no matter where you go, god and the devil are right there with you. We could try to explain that in some esoteric philosophy, or just admit it is us all along.
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People will see what they are taught to see, and recognise only whatever they already believe.
We made God in our image, and God makes us do whatever we think we’re to do.
Weak willed and afraid of what people might think or say, we blame some other just to save face.
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Satan, the scapegoat invented by Christians to absolve themselves from accepting any responsibility for their own actions.
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Who is this voice in my head? It can’t be me for i would never do such a thing! Haha. Take the credit or take the blame. It’s all us. Welcome back sir.
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Every time an idiot Christian says the name Satan? I keep thinking of Geraldine….OOOHHHH THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT.
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Here is something that is really funny. So, they tell me that it is their Satan going into churches as priests and pastors who are raping kids. But? They also proclaim their god is all-knowing and all-powerful. So I guess Satan must be more powerful than their gawd cause not once did their gawd stop one single priest or pastor raping a kid in a church. I guess they ought to worship their Satan, he is a much more powerful being than their lame gawd.
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Many Christian people would agree with you and don’t think that there is a personal Satan, more so among the clergy. My previous Episcopal priest felt in this way. Well, I think no matter what we are accountable for our own actions. That’s true.
S till, looking at the evil in the world around and my own experience in the child welfare and prison system, I can’t help but think there is also a darker power in the mix of all of this as well. I can’t prove it, and I could be wrong, but it’s my thoughtful and strong intuition.
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Humans have been blaming the actions of evil on an all powerful being since humans first looked up at the sky and proclaimed the lights in the night sky? Were the gods and goddesses. Each Pagan pantheon? Has their version of a “satan”. Of course, honestly? NO created being used to represent evil is worse than the “satan” of the Abrahamists, especially Christianity. But here are a few interesting things about the Christian Satan.
The god of the bible? Killed millions. Satan? Killed 10 and he had to get permission from god to do so.
The god of the bible, not Satan? Who commanded mass slaughters and committed mass slaughters himself if you take Noah’s Ark as truth. But never once in the bible is there a story of Satan committing mass slaughter or ordering a mass slaughter.
You have god ordering the rapes of virgin girls. Satan does not do so once. It was God, not Satan, who ordered his followers to smash the bodies of infants and children against rocks. It was God, not Satan, who had parents cannibalize their own children. It was God, not Satan, who gave the death penalty punishment for mouthy children and it was God, not Satan who sent two she bears to rip to shreds 42 kids for making a joke about the prophet Elisha’s bald head. It was God, not Satan, who ordered one of his people to hack his daughter into 12 pieces and send each piece to a Tribe of Israel. It was God, not Satan who commanded that 12 boys and 12 girls be sacrificed and their bodies placed under the walls of the Temple.
So I would have to ask myself? Who the real evil being here. Cause it sure is not Satan in this case.
Satan is blamed for bringing evil into the world by supposedly tempting Eve with the fruit and then Eve tempting Adam. Trouble is? There is no absolute proof for the Garden of Eden nor Adam and Eve. And? They are only around 7,000 years old in their fable, while the earth is billion of years old. The human race right now is about 3.2 MILLIONS years old and been walking on the planet for that long. Millions upon millions of years before the fable of Adam and Eve.
Satan is the Christians version of Prometheus and Pandora myth, whom Zeus had him nailed to a rock on top of amountain in the Caucasus and sent an eagle to eat his immortal liver, which constantly replenished itself. Hercules freed him eventually. But why was this done? Well first because Prometheus tricked Zeus into accepting a sacrifice of fat and bones instead of meat but his biggest crime was bringing fire, light and knowledge to humanity. Prometheus is the bringer of fire and civilization to mortals but also their preserver, giving them all the arts and sciences as well as the means of survival. Instead of a male Satan releasing evil into the world, it was Pandora who did so at the urging of Zeus who tricked Prometheus
Satan supposedly brought knowledge and light to humanity, the knowledge of the difference between good (light) and evil (darkness). Satan is supposed to be chained to a rock in the lower regions of hell as punishment and will eventually be released to fight in the supposed final war against Jesus and God.
Then? You take the descriptions and depictions of the gods Pan, Cerennunous and compare their depictions and descriptions of the Christian Satan? Then you will learn the addage is true. The gods and goddesses of the old religion become the demons and devils of the new.
Is there powerful evil in our world? YES. But it is not because of a “Satan”. Is there powerful good in our world? Yes, but it is not because of the Christian god or Jesus. Matter of fact? It is the exact opposite. God and Jesus and Christianity? Is responsible for bringing some of the most evil things to humanity. Mass slaughters, mass genocides, wars, Inquisitions, etc. Satanists? Have never done any of these things. Heck they are more peaceful and loving than most Christians I know. They truly follow their rules of and if it harms none, even yourself? Do as you will. They do not go out and say if you do not believe in our Satan we will put you to brutal deaths in forced conversion programs nor Inquistions, nor wars. Christians? Have.
So who and where is the true evil coming from? Not Satan or Satanists, but God believers and Abrahamists mostly.
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Not only are there Christian pastors in the pulpit who do not believe in Satan? They also do not believe in god or Jesus either. There are actually? Many atheists in the pulpit.
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Every church knows that they are right and they know everyone else is wrong. Every believer follows the correct path in the correct religion. How can we know for sure? How can we know we are right? Well, God could certainly step in and set the record straight. Then we’d know exactly what to do and how to do it. Seems reasonable enough since this god supposedly wants to have a relationship with us. It’d be rather cruel to let billions of people do it the wrong way and risk hell because of it.
But what do I know? I’m not a god and my logical mind has no business contemplating things of this nature.
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But you are god (and devil). Seems we are at our own impasse. I wonder if I argue with myself who will win…
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That’s kind of a toss-up, but I think you’d have the upper hand. I know Jim and I think you could take him. 🙂
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Hahaha. You are right again. I’ll give you a billion points for that.
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Your “mind has no business contemplating things of this nature”? Your mind has no business doing anything else, man. But don’t bother with the logic, it doesn’t work in either direction, not without some kind of perception involved, or should that be conception. Whatever.
Anyways, facts are useless without context, and neither god nor devil can be given context, as far as I am concerned. Yet the mind yearns for spirituality of some sort, whether it be purpose, or meaning, or just curiosity.
What does spirituality mean to me? Not gods, or devils, that is for sure. Spirituality is that which connects living beings to oether living being, in context of the natural world, of which we are a part. However, since humanity has seen to cut itself off from non-humanity, what is left of spirituality is that which tries to connect human being to human being. Of course, the more roadblocks you put in the way (race, religion, wealth, sexuality, etc.) the less connection you feel, until you whittle your spirituality down to yourself, at which time you start connecting to things that do not exist. And THAT is a wide open door.
If the best answer is the simplest, I’ll go with being connected to all living beings–in one word, Life.
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But, no Ben, why it’s only we Lutheran/Episcopal Christians that just get it right Everytime. That Scripture about “seeing through a glass darkly” and so on only applies to those Pentecostals and especially the fundamentalists. 😻
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It’s all just mega-magical imagining. Everyone constructs their own personal whatever, gods, ghosts, spirits, et al. The realm of the supernatural is nowhere except in those imaginings. Cheers. GROG
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That’s actually pretty good Grog. Different neurology, different beliefs, different input or questions or environs, different imaginations. How one believes may be as interesting as why
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We all try to make sense of the world. If there is no knowledge we make up stories. GROG
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Waiting. Waiting. Waiting. That is the real crime here.
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It may be a necessary evil. Think of it like a guru challenge. The appeal to faith turned individual men powerless (and to waiting) Imagine if they each had control of their own path without being ready to wield such power and responsibility?
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Imagine… we might have thriving colonies on Titan today! Can’t have that, can we.
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Certainly too many have settled for waiting and investigating why they wait. Imagine if everyone were engaged in their real dreams? But only a few innovators now drag the end users along and it makes them intelligent because of it.
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John, are you speaking of the parousia? I would definitely agree that there have been Christian people that have withdrawn from the main stream of life to anticipate the ,”last days.” But, I can’t see this as being the majority. So many of our great institutions of higher learning from Yale to Princeton have roots and origin from the Christian Church. Not to mention innovation in art, music, and literature. Many Christian people are out there even today following their dreams and passions wanting to make a positive difference. Wouldn’t it be better to say “some theists” or some people of faith rather than to lump everyone into the same category? To me, this would be more just and fair.
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Not at all. We are talking about religion as a body, and as a body it is fixated not on improving the human condition, but, in the case of the Abrahamic religions at least, on departing this world. “God is in control” are the four most heart-breaking, negligent, immoral, helpless, anti-human words ever spoken by a human being.
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John, I can tell you honestly this is not the case in general within the mainline denominations. They think that to work to improve the human condition is one way that we participate and walk out the Kingdom of God. Awhile back when I was part of the Episcopal Church, the general convention of the church took on the UN Millennial goals at the time as it’s mission statement. There truly is great diversity within the church, John. Just sayin. 😁
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You know in all fairness to my more conservative brothers and sisters, even many of the more conservative Christian organizations want to make a positive difference to relieve human suffering and to save lives. Apart from what we might think of Franklin Graham, right not Samaritan’s Purse is there in the thick of danger in NYC, setting up a field hospital with scores of medical workers. They do this in disaster zones all over the world.
They are definitely not waiting since “God is in control,” but are walking out their faith in real and tangible ways at significant personal risk.
John, there is truth in what you’re saying, but not the whole truth. There is a much larger picture, IMO.
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Part of their mandate requires those involved to pledge they are against gay marriage and abortion before being allowed to work ”in the field”.
I think that is a pretty shitty deal don’t you, Becky?
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Franklin Graham is an abusive conservative Christian.
Many of those who serve in missions like Samaritan’s Purse are genuine people who give a shit and care.
That doesn’t mean that they necessarily have a clue about who Franklin is or that their religion itself is in fact patriarchal, misogynistic and built on hell’s foundation.
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This is dialogue I took down this morning on a recent FoxNews segment on Justice with Judge Jeanine and Franklin Graham – Samaritan’s Purse.
JJ: “Why would God allow this kind of thing to happen?”
FG: “Well I don’t think God planned for this too happen. It’s because of the sin that’s in the world judge. Man has turned his back on God and sinned and we need to ask for God’s forgiveness and that’s what Easter is all about. It’s about God so loving the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ came to save sinners. He didn’t come to condemn the world but to save the world. And if we put our faith and trust in him he’ll forgive our sins and heal our hearts and he’ll change the course of our lives. And this pandemic, this is the result of a fallen world. A world that has turned its back on God and so I would encourage people to pray and just let’s ask, let’s ask God for help.”
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The ongoing, never-ceasing, full of shit response that comes out of the mouth of every “Christian” leader. You would think by now they could come up with something that carries more substance.
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Vacuous. Both the questioner and the responder. Heartless. Notice how he right away gets God off the hook. And just like God, blames humans. This pandemic is your fault Nan. Mine too.
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the church took on
Notice you didn’t write, the church “proposed.” Now, good on them for following the secular-humanist lead, but it took the secular-humanist to *see* those goals.
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As you are convinced of the veracity of your faith/belief then please tell us,
a) what you expect to get out of it, and
b) what evidence do you have to support such beliefs
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And each new generation of theists is shown the same old hoary disproven arguments, and they thinking them wonderfully inventive, trot them out to surprise atheists. (I can only do virtual facepalms at the moment due to the restrictions we are under to not touch our faces.)
The level of thinking this betrays is truly appalling, but then this cohort is not exactly renowned for its thinking. (I am glad that we are still permitted sighs.)
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And if your born in it Steve, one never even gets to explore with a blank slate. They aim to have these kids converted before they can speak. Talk about limiting innovation. What they fail to realize is all these aha moments have been hammered to death in other belief systems as well for 4-5000 years.
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Jim, that is the whole point, “…one never even gets to explore a blank slate.” Every child gets the father-in-heaven program installed early on. This is the delusion that needs to be acknowledged. Heaven and all inhabitants therein are not real. All the other stuff about holy texts, miracles, etc., etc are a waste of time arguing about, and irrelevant! Cheers, take care and stay safe. GROG
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After thousands of years and still nothing to show for it—I think I’ll go enjoy the world while I can.
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And, why would you do otherwise? Every moment is precious if a person knows who and what they are. If a person is not doing what makes them happy, why aren’t they ? GROG
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There is an attempt being made to give Christianity some more vitality. It is cool and edgy to be a theocratic “traditional Catholic” in some corners of the internet, these days. Some are combining this with nationalism or some other political ideology(libertarianism, neo-reaction, fascism, corporatism, monarchism). It is kind of like heavy metal used to be. There are also some academics who want to revive interest in Thomas Aquinas, and who write what amounts to apologetics for the history of the Catholic Church. Things like downplaying the Inquisition, or insisting that the Church was always against slavery. There are still fanatical Evangelicals, especially in America, but those are losing numbers and influence. But for the most part Christianity lost its viability some time ago. It fell victim in the end to its own actions. In my town four churches have closed, at least one is still up for sale. This is rural America I am talking about. I read a story earlier about all the churches in Europe that are empty, closed, or being sold. I heard of one that is going to be turned into some kind of Buddhist center. The Christians expect to go out in fire and blood, but it seems that it will just be gradual decline.
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Churches will make fine museums… I would offer though that just like the mom and pops gave way to the mall, quite possibly the hometown churches are giving way to the mega churches and corporate churches of America. Preachers with apps like Osteen and Copeland have edged out the little guy, like amazon.com over sears and k mart, now religion can be delivered to you device
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Militant, I’m not a fundamentalist Christian so I don’t have the same way of interpreting and viewing the Scripture. But, maybe it’s best not to get into this difference together. I agree with you concerning the Wiccans. I think they are generally awesome too. I very much share their love of the natural world. And, sadly agree, that the church has clergy that are non believers in the pulpit. Stay well and be safe, Militant.
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Someone said to me, “We are the Jews who got it right.”
Analogy: In each pot is a religion. Each stew is made by men, not any god. Throw in more people (theists, believers, fakers and takers; whatever you call them). Good ones and bad (I shun the blank slate metaphor). The atheist says, “Look how bad this stew is for humanity.” Believers then say, “No. Religion is good. Can’t you see how the good people in the soup are so good? The good people make the bad of religion look good.”
In conclusion, if there really were any gods, they would not put up this shit. Religions are not equally bad, but all are man made corruptions of the truth. The principle of every one is basically the same.
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What do feel is the commonality? Also, how could God bring absolute agreement without violating human freedom at the same time? Bill, you and I both know that there are some folks that no amount of objective evidence one way or the other could ever be convincing because their views are more based in emotion and subjective experience. Many anti theists freely admit that no evidence toward the existence of a creator could persuade them, and of course, there are people of faith who feel the same way going in the opposite direction.
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Anti theism and atheism are not equivalent. I know of no person of either group who says no evidence is possible for existence. Religion is a separate matter.
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This is nonsense. There is evidence most would accept. There just isn’t any evidence that has led to Jesus as the creator of the universe. Hell, barely any he existed at all.
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Jim, I think there are few scholars who dispute the historicity of Jesus. They’re out there, but they certainly don’t represent the majority position, the consensus of the scholarship. For me, the crux of the matter is not so much the existence of Jesus, but it’s more the question, “Who do you say that I am, ” and what is His call, if any, in my life?
And, what I think from my own studies, and in conversation with many people is that the evidence that is persuasive toward one person is not necessarily to another for various reasons.
I was listening to one of the leading non-theist scholars in debate. I honestly can’t recall his name off the top of my head. He addressed this very issue. He talked about something to the effect that even if He was an eyewitness of the resurrection, if God spoke to Him personally, or performed some notable miracle, he would consider this to be an hallucination or something else. I can absolutely understand his sincere thinking because if someone’s worldview is wholly conditioned by naturalism, there isn’t room for the possibility of a creator no matter what might happen. It’s just a forgone conclusion. I think he was a good man, being honest.
I can tell you flat out, though, that if I became persuaded that the resurrection of Jesus was simply a hoax, I would not be a Christian believer. I feel like most intelligent and thinking people in the church feel exactly the same way.
But, on the other hand, I would not walk away from my faith because of the abuse or hypocrisy of others who have done evil in the name of Christ or for emotional reasons. At least, I hope that I would not.
We are not going to resolve this together, for sure, anytime soon, Jim. Pax.
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For anyone to consider the resurrection of the character Jesus of Nazareth to be a hoax implies there was intent by someone/ various individuals to actively promote such a belief, all the while knowing full well it was a lie.
If, for the sake of argument, one assumes the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth was an historical event and also the empty tomb, is it not possible the character’s supposed resurrection was merely a misguided belief from a few distraught individuals, that caught on?
As this scenario is perfectly plausible what is it about the resurrection account in the bible that you find convincing, Becky?
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Hi, Ark, how are you? Of course, it’s possible. But, to me, it seems unlikely. I remember having this discussion over at Gary’s blog. I agree that people can be distraught with grief, and have vivid and real dreams of their loved ones. But, at the end of the day, generally people are going to know that Grandma and Grandpa have not truly, and literally come back to a new life, and are coming over next week for Sunday dinner. Even the ancients, did not suppose that it was an everyday happening for people to live again.
But, I don’t feel that people can come to a conviction of the resurrection of Jesus from within a paradigm of naturalism. First, someone has to be persuaded that there is a creator, and that the seemingly miraculous is a possibility in the first place.
I feel, naturalistic bias aside, that the resurrection of Jesus is truly the most logical and reasonable explanation for the genesis and spread of the early church.
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There is no ”naturalistic bias”, Becky, as naturalism is all we have!
There is, however, a rejection of the supernatural because there is no way of demonstrating it.
Therefore the bias lies solely with you and others who believe.
While the ones who are claimed to have witnessed this event might be considered to have an excuse as being ”on hand” one might say, you are so far removed from the event that all you have is belief based on an unsubstantiated tale in a book. A book we know >/em> is riddled with every conceivable error across multiple disciplines,
And this is even before we consider the fraud and forgeries.
Remember, also, your belief had to be inculcated, whether at the knee or simply due to cultural exposure.
I very much doubt you believe those who claim to have been abducted by aliens – and at least we are not dealing with anything supernatural – but you on the other hand will swear blind this was an actual real life event, based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
Any reasonable thinking individual should take a moment to really examine this statement.
I reiterate, you believe based on no evidence whatsoever .
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Many ancients other than the Abrahamists believed in an afterlife and even coming back to life. The myth of Mithras pre-dates the myth of Jesus. The story of Jesus? Is just a re-telling of Mithras. Even their “birthdays” are the same lol.
The truly logical and reasonable explaination for the genesis and spread of the early church is two-fold.
1. It was spread through forced conversions. Starting with the Christian church forced conversion programs on the Pagans.
2. It was created to control the population. The creators KNEW that all people feared what happens after death and that almost all people of their time believed in gods and goddesses and the afterlife. The Christians basically took the Jewish religion and converted it and actually changed much of the Jewish theology, to create their Christianity.
All one has to do is truly study the origin, the Mother religion of the Hebrews to even see this which is what most Christians fail to do. YOU MUST study the root from which your religion grew from to understand.
YOU also would have to truly study the life of the Romans at the time. There were too many religions and too many religious sects. It was causing the Roman Empire much trouble. Jews like Jesus if he were real? Were typically crucified for treason, in essence they were suggesting the overthrow of the Roman government, something you did not do. Jews were not the only ones put to death this way. Other groups of people were too.
Romans were even put to death for it, but not crucified, as crucifixion was not a death penalty punishment given to Romans.
But it all basically came down to trying to save the Empire and re-unite it under a banner of one religion, actually created and approved by the State and those religious leaders the state choose to lead their new state religion called Christianity.
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Even your bible, is NOT an eyewitness account. These books, the earliest? Was “written” a full 70 years after the events described and passed down by oral tradition. YOU actually believe what is essentially oral tales passed down for almost 4 generations before they were even written down. So how can you state this is even truth? How can you state these are first hand eye witness accounts when they are not.
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Becky: For me, the crux of the matter is not so much the existence of Jesus, but it’s more the question, “Who do you say that I am, ” and what is His call, if any, in my life? *Emphasis by Zoe
Zoe: First you tell us the the major scholarly consensus is that Jesus existed but then you morph into it’s really not the crux of the matter.
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Becky: “I can tell you flat out, though, that if I became persuaded that the resurrection of Jesus was simply a hoax, I would not be a Christian believer. I feel like most intelligent and thinking people in the church feel exactly the same way.
But, on the other hand, I would not walk away from my faith because of the abuse or hypocrisy of others who have done evil in the name of Christ or for emotional reasons. At least, I hope that I would not.”
Zoe: Okay. First you say you would not believe if persuaded re: resurrection hoax. And that you “feel” most intelligent/thinking people feel like you.
Then you follow it up with but I can sure tell you I’m not walking based on abuse, hypocrisy or emotions.
Should you ever come to the persuasion that the resurrection is a hoax to use your words, or simply didn’t happen, you will walk away because you’ll then understand that you have been abused, have been surrounded by hypocrisy and you’ll be overwhelmed with emotion.
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Zoe, it’s hard to know how we might react. Perhaps I might feel that I was just mistaken., not abused. But, I agree that no one can know exactly how we’re going to feel before being in that situation. And, I think it can be difficult at times to separate it all out.
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I will accept evidence in a heartbeat. Feel free to produce something …. anything. in fact, that would verify your claims.
The floor is yours, Becky.
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Becky,
What evidence do you have that your God gave humans free will?
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I think we have the ability as humans to make choices in the way that animals can’t. We can project our thoughts into the past and think about the future. We can contemplate our own mortality and the consequences of our actions. I think we’re more than pre-programmed robots.
At the same time, there is a sense that no one is completely free. We are impacted by genetics and our culture. It’s complex. What is your opinion, Zoe? Do you feel humans have a measure of free will or do you feel that all of our choices are predetermined?
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You didn’t answer the question.
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LOL, Zoe. We are having a tough time communicating. I thought I did answer. My feeling is based in personal experience, and objective observation. But, what about you? Are you feeling that humans have a measure of freedom, or that all our choices are predetermined or simply based in culture? I think the extent of freedom that we have is an issue that is even debated by people that are Christian believers.
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Folks, I want to say that I’m not getting notifications for responses to my comments. So, if I’m losing track in responding that’s why. I’m computer illiterate. Probably deleted something.
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I had to delete a bunch of militants vile comments. Things may seem out of sorts. I had enough of his abuse directed to you.
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Thanks for your concern Jim. Militant had shared with me awhile back on his blog that because of the trauma and abuse in his past, certain comments are very triggering to him. I think probably something like that happened. It can be very difficult to share across the internet with these brief sound bites. Plus we don’t have the benefit of being able to read body language to be able to further sense how someone might be feeling. It’s Iike talking with someone blindfolded. I feel like I need to be more sensitive to Militant in my responses also.
I know that he advocates for kids that have been sexually abused and this weighs heavily on him as well. I was very glad that he did comment again and that you welcomed him back to your blog. I hope that if we talk again, the conversation might go much better.
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He’s super smart, I just can’t advocate violence in any way. Thanks Becky.
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