There is a fundamental why the ongoing situation is so offending to African Americans concerning “All Lives Matter”, as a response to “Black Lives Matter”.
When someone says that Black Lives Matter, they are meaning it with an expectation that those responsible for the problem accept ownership of the problem.
This is one of the many irritations that offend African Americans (and me too) when people respond with all lives matter—it is blatant virtue signaling and another distraction to sidetrack a cause that should have resolved years ago—and like telling them to clean up after someone else’s mess in an area they have not had access.
Of course all lives matter—but not as much as this does right now. Maybe today the iron is hot enough to make a lasting difference?
Like pro-life is to women’s rights, the counter-movement all lives matter, is an endaround to maintain control and saddle black people with fixing a problem they didn’t create.
And don’t forget, blue lives matter—now, signing up for a dangerous job to stroke your ego is the same as facing down the barrel of those sworn to serve and protect—now serving and protecting themselves by abusing the oppressed? All lives matter is fundamentally racist to the core of white denial.
Justice uneasily reasoned—2020 By LP
TheCommonAtheist 
This whole thing is so infuriating sometimes I want to scream. A favorite tactic of these prejudiced jackasses is to try to take a social justice movement like Black Lives Matter and try to turn it around and make it about *them*, and try to make it look like *they* are the victims. They’re doing the same thing here with this that they’ve been trying to do with the movement to insure that LGBTQ people are guaranteed the same rights as everyone else. The message they’re trying to put out is that somehow movements like BLM or the LGBTQ rights movement are somehow violating their rights.
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Great minds think alike 😀 LOL
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Most importantly the problem is that All Lives Matter is a response designed to deceive the listener. It aims to create the impression that blacks feel they’re more important than “you” the listener, when in fact they’re asking for equal treatment.
This is an old rhetorical tactic which has been used and abused by the Christian Right, particularly in their anti-gay propaganda.
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How do you like those that selectively quote mine selective science articles and commentary to suggest that you are not who you say you are? It must be very frustrating.
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That’s exactly what they’re doing. Same thing happened with education. When schools and universities were forced to admit that they’d been engaging in racist behaviors towards minorities and forced to try to make up for it, immediately these whining little prejudiced crybabies started complaining that somehow giving minorities equal access to an education was giving them “special privileges” somehow.
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And in case anyone is interested here’s a fascinating article about how the modern religious right movement was born to enforce segregation: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133
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this is well said, Pink
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Pink Agendist, I just think it’s divisive based in race. We should be calling for police reform in general. There are certainly incidents where white people or folks of other races lose their lives at the hands of the police where in retrospect things could or should have been handled differently. Yet, we don’t automatically conclude this is due to racial bias even if the police officer in questions happens to be Black. All Lives Matter sounds more inclusive to me, and I’m not part of the religious right. I’m also very much in support of things like gay marriage. To me, this is a totally different issue.
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Do you know how to identify a (statistical) pattern? Or demonstrate causation?
If we have similar behaviours in two groups, let’s call them A and B; but group A is consistently blamed or punished for that behaviour while it’s ignored in group B – we can then identify which factors may or may not play a role in those results.
Interestingly the creation of prejudices is often based on this sort of bias. Consider the concept/myth of Jewish greed. Nazi Germany plundered most of Europe in obscene ways, but you don’t hear people say Germans are money hungry. Now we know heterosexual AIDS was a massive problem (in places like Haiti) before the epidemic in the gay community but it was known for a long time as a gay disease. See what I mean, those are errors of statistical association. The same kind people make when they dismiss ethnicity in the equation of social marginalization. All Lives Matter dismisses the importance of that factor.
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You Stated — “I just think it’s divisive based in race.”
Because of the statement “Black Lives Matter”
My Response — So you felt racial division and pushed back Oo
Irony:
a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character’s words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
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“All lives matter is fundamentally racist to the core of white denial.” Yep!
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I don’t know how widespread the demographic is, but in my dealings it seems the religious right supports ALM? ‘Forgive them father, for they know not what they do”. White privilege is living in denial.
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Absolutely. You know, in some ways, though I find them repugnant, I’d prefer dealing with straight up, out in the open, racists like white nationalists, the KKK, and Neo-Nazis. At least those pieces of shit are open and honest about their disdain for people of color and the like. This fucking bullshit of tossing around garbage like “Well, all lives matter, man” to shade over certain people’s innate racism is sickening. If “all lives matter” then have the fucking police treat all living people EXACTLY the god damn same! Until they do, we must keep reminding the world that black lives matter TOO, and just as much as white ones.
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If Black life’s matter, and of course they do…..can someone help educate me on what the black community is doing to stop violence and murders on black / black crime? Can someone tell me what the Black community is doing to raise up their community and establish less single parent homes? can someone tell me what the black community is are doing to help the crime in their communities? life is about balance. we all need to help each other but first we need to try to help ourselves.
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Your question is deflecting and has nothing to do with the fact that unarmed blacks are killed by those sworn to serve and protect.
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The ole “straw man” argument technique, eh. Sophomoric attempt at dealing with THIS issue.
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You Asked — “help educate me on what the black community is doing to stop violence and murders on black / black crime?”
My Response — So to be clear… You want black people to defend themselves rather than force the police to stop killing them alongside criminals that kill them?
You don’t agree that the solution to criminals killing black people is a police force that looks out for their well being?
You think “Black on Black crime” is the appropriate terminology rather than “Criminals on Law-Abiding citizens”
There are criminals that perform unlawful acts against law-abiding citizens. Your statement attempts to humiliate black people by stating that they are outside of society. You then double down with the idea that the victims of criminal activity don’t deserve the support or respect from the police because they were born with the same skin pigmentation.
Absurd and beyond nonsensical bordering on sick
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You Stated — “This fucking bullshit of tossing around garbage like “Well, all lives matter, man” to shade over certain people’s innate racism is sickening. ”
My Response — What he said
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INSP:
You get—we get—the policing we deserve, no?
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Jim, this is more complex to me. I think people can certainly have “privilege,” but I don’t see it based in race. To use the illustration if a black child is born to into an intact family with parents who are trial lawyers, while a white child is born to a single mom who is also a meth addict, who is likely to have the most privilege?
I think privilege has much more to do with things like family structure or socio-economic class than it does with race. Being white does not innately give someone more privilege than being black, IMO.
I also have known African-American people who find the idea of white people feeling that they are innately more privileged as very condescending and patronizing toward them.
Then there are others who feel that if we don’t buy into the notion of white privilege, it’s proof positive of inherent racism. How confusing is that?
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Confusing. Of course, to many of your points. “ I think privilege has much more to do with things like family structure or socio-economic class than it does with race”. Wait til you get pulled over by the police. Do you really believe you would get the same treatment (insert any scenario here) as a black man?
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Well, what about if an older and respectable looking black man gets pulled over vs. a punk lookin, bad assed young white man, would the police react differently?
Jim, I just think the manner and behavior of the suspect as well as the training the individual cop has received is more relevant than race. Here are some other statistics.
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism
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Becky, you wrote: I think privilege has much more to do with things like family structure or socio-economic class than it does with race.
In case you aren’t aware … (From Wikipedia)
… most of the United States remains a residentially segregated society in which blacks and whites inhabit different neighborhoods of significantly different quality. (Emphasis mine)
… the movement of middle-class families and other businesses to the suburbs, left much economic devastation in the inner cities. Consequently, African-Americans were disproportionately affected and became either unemployed or underemployed with little wage and reduced benefits. — This is still true today.
Contemporary African-American or Black ghettos are characterized by an overrepresentation of a particular ethnicity or race, vulnerability to crime, social problems, governmental reliance and political disempowerment. — These are the conditions that are prevalent among the African-American community.
No matter how many times you claim that “Being white does not innately give someone more privilege than being black,” you will be wrong … wrong … wrong.
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Nan, I wish there was an easy answer and we all could agree. These problems of violence and crime in our inner cities have to run much deeper than unemployment or underemployment. Consider our immigrant population. These people often come to our country with limited resources from all over the world including sub-sahara Africa. They don’t know our language. I’ve worked with folks as an ESL teacher who fled with little more than the clothes on their back. And yet, in general they have a lower crime rate than the general population including white people. They push their kids to succeed in school. Something terrible has happened to many Black families in the inner city
I truly don’t feel that racism in the police departments is the most concerning issue and that any real part of a lasting solution to all this is to defund the police or tear down statues. Hopefully we are all going to figure this out together before it’s too late.
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So poverty doesn’t exist in white folks is what you are basically claiming? I went to school with many poor white kids, and the same as poor black students they were some of the main victims of bullying. I may have not been assualted by cops as a white women, but I most certainly have witnessed their acts of bullying and those who abuse their badge. Most cops in my experience seem like they became a cop for revenge of the years they were bullied in high school. Not all cops, but most do abuse their power. Even then…so I escape police brutality and may not get ID’d by a cop walking down the street (although I have once before walking down a street in some neigborhood that was not my own.) what privileges was I born with exactly? Also keep in mind before responding…I also failed to tell you I am on the autism spectrum and have been treated unjust because of that. But you don’t see me screaming AUTISM LIVES MATTER TOO…I with all my heart believe all lives matter in the USA and all around the world. We have so many problems with our society, and they all need to be addressed before it’s too late.
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Don’t read more into my words than is there …
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You Stated — “I think people can certainly have “privilege,” but I don’t see it based in race”
My Response — We have documented proof of non-equal pay for equal work rooted in skin pigmentation. We have statistics that clearly show heavy police “stop and frisk” policies on people of color. We have a well-televised “pay for prison system” that incarcerates black citizens at higher numbers and longer sentences than whites for the exact same offenses.
The core strength of racism is privilege and racism is a very real reality for many black people in America. What will it take to address that issue and stop defending vernacular arguments?
https://realitydecoded.blog/2020/05/28/is-prejudice-real/
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Only one thing will “stop it” (until it resurfaces on another form at another time) and that’s the total collapse and destruction of the racist society including the death of every racist, even if only in thought. Racism is an addiction without cure. It only goes dormant during certain short periods of time or slithers from one place to another following groups or powerful personalities. Isn’t that what history demonstrates?
Check this one out: https://www.monbiot.com/2020/06/21/lying-in-state/
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While you are correct, there is still an unequal pay gap for women as well, even since the states passed the equal act. I am not denying that black people need attention right now, but there is a lot of wrong in America and all over the globe right now with inequality and wrong doings. All of which I think are important and also need addressing. The USA has a whole slew of issues, but one of the biggest issues I think is the corporations, governments verse the citizens. I think privilege most definitely has to do with what you were born into. Terms like ‘white trash’ is a very real thing. A poor white kid is just as likely to be bullied the same as a poor black student. I have witnessed it just the same. Obama was a racist black person. and there are so many more examples that I think it all boils down to money and power still shapes our perspectives and judgement, more so than just skin color. There is a very uneven class system in America and it dives deeper than just whites verse minorities. There is the very rich and then the very poor. It’s capitalism, anyone has the opportunity to benefit from that system as long as they are willing to ride the storm. The problem is if you don’t agree with that system or fall behind. I think if racism ended tomorrow in America, there would still be all the other problems with their system. It’s very broken.
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You stated — ”I think if racism ended tomorrow in America, there would still be all the other problems with their system. “
My Response — All the more reason to have a BLM movement… so we can defang one problem to free up resources to go after the next.
Women and the poor benefit from this movement, if it succeeds.
Corporation’s will also loose power to an evolving public mindset that wants positive change.
Just a thought
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I completely agree with you. I was just sharing my thoughts and why I don’t understand why it is such a trigger for some people when we share ‘all lives matter’ I didn’t even think it was a movement really in response to BLM. I believe with all my heart that every single race, gender identity, sexual orientation, child, adult, elderly etc all matter and I believe we all need to matter equally and until then we won’t stop protesting against the powers today. I still feel right now is more about police brutality and ending that than just a racial movement. Even stating a white cop killing a black person to me isn’t really the point. The point to me was a police officer who we are suppose to trust and rely on to protect us and for safety, murdered a person. Like that if we want to say it is just a racial thing, then Latino’s are another minority that is also a victim of police brutality. I think we also need to keep in mind it goes deeper than just that. The huge lack of training in the police force is very worrisome. They have to make decisions in split seconds, and I don’t feel they have the resources or tools equipped to make proper decisions. Also remember there are two sides to every story(well not all, George FLoyd was very cut and dry) but the incident in August 2014 when Brown was killed by a police officer that started the whole ‘hands up, don’t shoot’ started a rally after finding out it never even happened and they could not prove the witness testimonies. Like I stated, the system is very broken in the states and that includes the media and where the majority of Americans are getting their information from. They will do anything to keep us divided, including adding fire to racial problems and they want us arguing over slogans like ALM and BLM. I refuse to give into it. There have also been questions about the BLM, that to support black lives yes, but not the movement itself. That people have been met with anger by the group, to be forced to support them and much more. We all have our own beliefs, and as long as they are not harming anyone I think we need to find some middle ground and unite against a powerful government that is very much against all of us and not one race. We all have to feed their agenda and if we don’t we don;t survive in this society. Which is why I always say ‘what happens when you don’t trust or believe in their agenda?’ Black people act as if they are alone in feeling that way. They are not. I don’t believe there is ‘white privilege’ per say, I believe it is more common in our race yes and I accept it. But there is people who are white in poverty too. I believe there are only two easy chances at success and that is you are born into it, your family has a lot of money or you work your ass off for it, but you are still feeding the system and following that structure. If we have to accept our dark past of our ancestors, than so can Native Americans who were NOT peaceful before white man came and did not get along with other tribes. Many atrocities happened before we came to America. Blacks don’t have a innocent and non bloody past either. You think places in Africa is peaceful? No, and that is majority African people, and whites are the minority. There are countries today where whites have no rights. Or the Asians right now that are being ridiculed for the COVID disease. So here is my stance…humans are the most destructive species on this planet, we always have been and we always will be. It is in our nature it seems to go in and just destroy stuff, take what we want and take over. Whites are not the only guilty race of violence and having some questionable stuff go on in their past. It is why I only accept our guilt in the western world. However, most don’t even know why we came to America, rather it excuses it or not. We basically didn’t have a choice and it was for our own survival. I have many examples of why humans suck and why I am tired of hearing why just one race should take the blame and live in guilt. I am a white woman, and am still waiting to hear from anyone what priviledges I have besides I don’t get ID’D by a cop randomly. I have had run ins with cops though where they have bullied me verbally. they just didn’t assault me. Because I am a woman I don’t have certain privileges that men do. But you don’t see me up in arms about it or screaming only our gender matters. I think in a way ‘BLM’ as much as they don’t want to say it singles out a race or is not racist, it is in a way. You labeled yourself by your race and seperated yourself from humanity. We are all human, we all matter and we need to conquer it together. Not separated. I supported and went to these protests in the beginning, I no longer go because of the forced agenda I began seeing on other people that don’t support them 100% or say things like I do. Even though I never said their lives don’t matter and such. It is about uniting, but it is also about finding middle ground sometimes so we can truly see equality and freedom. It is also about understanding the system yes, and also understanding the police force and what really needs to change etc.
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You Stated — “I don’t understand why it is such a trigger for some people when we share ‘all lives matter’”
My Response — I may be able to help you understand.
Group A sees 55 years of abuse with no solution.
They go after the “Powers that be”
Group A has a goal to stop ABUSE
They begin to gain ground
Group A VS Powers that be
Now group B comes in and attacks Group A because they do not like the group’s name
Group B has a goal to change NAMES
Group A starts to now fight on two fronts
The abuse that was slowing down, now stalls as group A fights Group B and the “Powers that be”
2 VS 1
Members of group B claim they also want abuse stopped but not until the much more important goal of changing NAMES is completed (Priorities Oo).
Keep in mind that for 55 years group B did nothing to stop ABUSE but they will do something to stop bad NAMES.
Hope that helps
You Stated — “Even stating a white cop killing a black person to me isn’t really the point.”
My Response — It would be if you were that black person and the cop was a well-known racist abusing you. If you can’t walk in another person’s shoes to see their challenge then at the very least don’t try to trip them as they walk by.
You Stated — “Also remember there are two sides to every story”
My Response — Correct. A right side and a wrong side. When a child is kidnapped, we have side A of the story (A Sick bastard) and side B of the story (A Victim). Let us try to focus on the victims first before defending the bastards.
Just saying
You Stated — “They will do anything to keep us divided, including adding fire to racial problems and they want us arguing over slogans like ALM and BLM. I refuse to give into it.”
My Response – But we are doing it now because names offend you Oo
You Stated — “We all have our own beliefs, and as long as they are not harming anyone I think we need to find some middle ground and unite against a powerful government that is very much against all of us and not one race.”
My Response – But said government enslaved that race Oo
Just saying
To have middle ground people must be on the same ground level. How in the world do you expect black people to help you fight a “powerful government” if they cannot even drive to work and then get equal pay once they get there?
You Stated — “Black people act as if they are alone in feeling that way. They are not. I don’t believe there is ‘white privilege’ per say, I believe it is more common in our race yes and I accept it.”
My Response — There is some cognitive dissonance in that statement.
I don’t believe there is ‘white privilege’ …….. it is more common in our race yes Oo
You Stated — “Blacks don’t have a innocent and non bloody past either. You think places in Africa is peaceful?”
My Response — What does Africa have to do with people in America being abused by police?
You Stated — “So here is my stance…humans are the most destructive species on this planet, we always have been and we always will be. ”
My Response — We are also the most creative, inspired, advanced and ambitious species on the planet but what does this have to do with police abusing people?
You Stated — “Whites are not the only guilty race of violence and having some questionable stuff go on in their past. I have many examples of why humans suck and why I am tired of hearing why just one race should take the blame and live in guilt.”
My Response — You do know that there are black police and they are also targeted by the BLM movement for the same crimes, right?
Humans don’t suck, we make pizza and wine.
You Stated — “Because I am a woman I don’t have certain privileges that men do. But you don’t see me up in arms about it or screaming only our gender matters.”
My Response — You do know that there are literally hundreds of organizations that support only women or address women’s suffrage, right? Your point is counterintuitive to your argument.
Just saying
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Again, you make a fair argument. I never denied blacks were not enslaved or their lives don’t matter. I think it is a great start to change, I do. I told you I simply stopped supporting a movement when they were forcing their agenda on another person’s rights. My entire point of my argument is ‘ALM’ is not really a movement nor was it ever was, that I simply don’t understand why it is such a trigger to say such a phrase. As for my argument around the globe, the world does not revolve just around Americans. Although most think it does. I was simply stating with all my heart I believe all lives do matter, and until we are all free and respected to do as we please I won’t stop saying I believe that because it offends another movement. I am not offended by the ‘BLM’ either, and I understand the destructions my race has brought upon blacks and native americans. However, true equality which is what they are all claiming they want, both sides are going to have to budge. There is no easy solution here. Native Americans get a free pass on a lot right now because of our white guilt. Minorities get a 2 point ahead benefit than me when they fill out a resume. In a capitilistic society…equality means best person for the job and NO ONE is babysat or is priviledged by the government. If you are lucky your parents may babysit you and pay for your future. I know mine didn’t. Again…you can blame the government, but when you are taking their band aid fixes and screaming you are still somehow the victim is wrong. I live close to Detroit, where there is black on black violence, most of them don’t go to school, never mind get a high school diploma. Most kids don’t have a father in the picture. But this is somehow all our fault because of something that happened in the past? I won’t take the blame for that. Anyone can change their life and choices. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, but I was yes lucky enough to not be born into poverty. That does not mean I didn’t have to over come certain struggles or work my ass off to get where I am today. My parents were not absent, but they were alcoholics. I am on the autism spectrum so I understand what it is like to be denied a job for something you cannot help. I understand what it is like to be bullied, not accepted in society etc. I am overwhelmed and on the verge of a panic attack most of the time, but I didn’t quit my job and said unemployment sounds cool, even though I could get benefits because I am on the spectrum. I choose to be a productive citizen because I just feel that is the right thing to do, and excuses never got anyone anywhere. I want my own independent life and I built that for myself against all odds. I am not sitting around blaming my government and expect it to change tomorrow. But autism, much like the color of your skin is feared in society and seen as a stigma. I prefer to tell people you can do it no matter what they tell you. I am still working on things like yes finding a better suited job for my needs, so I can be a little bit happier, but over all I am happy. It’s worth it to say I did it and without the help of anyone and people telling me I can’t. So I know what it is like to be a ‘minority’ I guess in a society hoping you fail and judge you for no reason other than their stereotype picture of you they painted in their mind. It is another reason why I say all lives matter, because as an autistic person MY LIFE MATTERS. I did fight for the BLM and supported them 100% until I saw some questionale shit go down. I don’t support groups or movemments who force their agenda down other people without forgetting that maybe that person mainly agrees with you, but disagrees in other aspects but the goal is still the same to both sides. I simply stated whites are not the only guilty race. If anything, most white people are not racist pricks anymore, just our government is and MOST people right now do not support our government. Trump winning election divided a nation faster than I ever saw before, because most AMericans including white are not racist pricks or as idiotic as Trump….yes there are some out there, but he won because most Americans didn’t show up to the polls because they felt it was better than voting for either imbecile they chose to run for president last election. Again our system is broken and most people are frustrated, it is not just black people. So yes while I agree with black lives do matter, the fact even these protests are going to continue to fall on deaf ears, at most the government will come out with some fake persona like they are going to fix it and some more band aid fixes, but it won’t change. OUr government is far too powerful, USA needs a revolution I truly believe that. We need all citizens right now to agree on SOMETHING…ANYTHING and use that to unite instead of arguing over silly sloglans like ALM or BLM. We are losing right now and we are up against one of the world’s most powerful governments and corporations etc. We will see though…USA has been protesting for years now, not just for BLM but a variety of different things and nothing has changed. Police are just responding with more brutality. I saw all races including whites be mistreated and assaulted by cops in these protests for no reason other than protesting peacefully and threatened to be arrested etc…so yes it is about police brutality and right now we are all becoming a victim of it. Does a cop need to flat out kill a white person for you to say we can also be a victim to police brutality? It’s bs and it needs to stop. It will only stop when we fight back. But forcing agendas on other people is not the way to do it. I know some of this was probably brutal and even maybe hateful, but we need to find some goals such as…what do we all want…Do you want equality in the system we have laid out right now? Or should we change it all together? I don’t feel anything right now is really working. I don’t support most feminists groups, heh….I think it could be a lot worse personally for us women. People be like yeah but a woman can’t walk down a dark alley way alone, and I be like why would you want to do that in the first place? Most businesses actually have equal pay…and it is getting better for both females and minorities. If anything minorities can seek more benefits than I can and are more encouraged to go to school, get a job etc. You want to say I have privilege, great…so do they? Besides not being a victim to police brutality however, what privileges do we have exactly?
And yes humans suck…We have been known to do great things, be creative etc…but even that we seem to find a way to destroy it. Everytime…music use to be a great thing, it still is if you dig deep enough, but wtf is that poison they play on the radio now? And why can anyone now get a record deal and be succesful when having absolutely no creative talent really to share with the world….technology will always be one of our best inventions, but even that now is seen as damaging to society and is getting very scary. One day we will destroy it, if we haven’t already. We make pizza and wine yes, thankfully but these are small accomplishments. 😛
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You Stated — “true equality which is what they are all claiming they want, both sides are going to have to budge.”
My Response — Just out of curiosity what do black people need to budge on in your opinion to obtain equality?
You Stated — “Minorities get a 2 point ahead benefit than me when they fill out a resume.”
My Response — In your opinion do you see black people as having an advantage in obtaining jobs over whites?
You Stated — “In a capitilistic society…equality means best person for the job and NO ONE is babysat or is priviledged by the government.”
My Response — Just out of curiosity do you think the people we have in office are the best people for the job?
You Stated — “I won’t take the blame for that. Anyone can change their life and choices.”
My Response — I feel I should state that no individual white people are blamed so I’m not sure why you are taking it this close to the vest. BLM is fighting against societal biases that punish skin pigmentation.
You Stated — “I choose to be a productive citizen because I just feel that is the right thing to do, and excuses never got anyone anywhere.”
My Response — Many black people are the same and that’s why it’s so frustrating when they are harassed by police on the way to work. They are working hard to thrive in the world and don’t want, or deserve, special attention from the police.
You Stated — “I am not sitting around blaming my government and expect it to change tomorrow.”
My Response — If your government does something illegal to your neighbors why would you not blame them and demand that they stop?
You Stated — “But autism, much like the color of your skin is feared in society and seen as a stigma.”
My Response — What about an autistic person of color? Would they have an equal struggle as you or would it be more challenging given the social hurdles put in place?
You Stated — “I simply stated whites are not the only guilty race.”
My Response — There is no such thing as a guilty race, it would be nonsensical and useless. There are only individual people who either make the world a better place or they don’t.
You Stated — “Does a cop need to flat out kill a white person for you to say we can also be a victim to police brutality?”
My Response — Police kill white people all the time and it’s caused outrage but no visceral response to put an end to it. At the moment people are bending over and taking it. (not the right move by the way)
You Stated — “If anything minorities can seek more benefits than I can”
My Response — Can you name a few?
You Stated — “We make pizza and wine yes, thankfully but these are small accomplishments. 😛”
My Response — Incorrect. Pizza and Wine are sold worldwide. The production of which employees millions of people across the globe. Bringing joy to billions of humans daily.
There are very few things on earth that bring joy to billions of people daily 😉
Just Saying
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That is a powerful display of the reality many young people of color are facing. Great post Jim!!
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Really something everyone should see. Thanks buddy.
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Sorry for another late reply…I wanted to apologize for my horrible grammar and paragraph structure. Lol For awhile wordpress wasn’t letting me make paragraphs even when I was typing them out as such, so I just kinda gave up. Seems it has fixed itself though.
Secondly, you stated…
‘To have middle ground people must be on the same ground level. How in the world do you expect black people to help you fight a “powerful government” if they cannot even drive to work and then get equal pay once they get there?’
Okay, why can’t they drive? Does the government also have to buy them all cars? Last time I checked, we all have to go to work(some even walk or bike hours to work if they have too…I have done it. It sucks, but it paid the bills and kept a roof over my head) until I could save up and buy a car. What job are they working at that they are not getting equal pay? Most jobs now do pay equal…where I work it actually depends on what department or position you hire into, but the pay is the same for say each those departments at starting wage. It is not based on minority or race etc. O.o If you graduated college or University, you will likely get paid more than me. If not, I highly suggest places like retail or just anything as a starting point, all of which will pay equally. At least in my state…You can also get raises etc as long as you wish to stick with a company and work for it. Again, anyone can make excuses. We all can, it just depends what you want out of life and how hard you are willing to go after it. I didn’t finish college or university (at the time I was struggling with all my diagnosis as I was not diagnosed as a child with autism, anxiety, OCD etc) so I never got the proper help I felt I needed as my parents completely ignored the fact I was a more than an abnormal child and swept it under the rug. It wasn’t until I got out of high school I knew it was not just me who wasn’t trying hard enough, I finally discovered I struggled with things other people my own age didn’t. I don’t know why it took so damn long to clue into it, I thought everyone felt the same as me and I just couldn’t like over come it or I wasn’t trying hard enough. It took me havinga few mental breakdowns (that put my life on pause) among other serious things that were deeply effecting my life for me to reach out and get help. I could blame my parents, but I don’t. They maybe did the best they could, maybe they didn’t. Either way I forgave them and have moved forward to make the best life and future possible for myself that I can. So I am currently stuck working in retail, on the shift I am it is very physically and mentally demanding and I am way under paid and probably under appreciated (although I am lucky enough to have a great manager who does appreciate it) but it continues to pay the bills. Relationships can be extremely challenging for me, yet I have even found a man I fell in love with, and is also my best friend. I shockingly got married. I have known struggle and hardship. I don’t think I am more of a victim to the system though than anyone else is. That is my kinda bigger picture I guess. Every race and every human being on this planet has their own story, their own struggle etc…The Jews survived the holocaust and over came their shit. Why doesn’t anyone talk about that? I figure it is something I must be uneducated about or missing. (perhaps I will google it) most places besides the western world, Australia etc really suck to live in. So as much as America sucks at times, it could be a lot worse. It could be a lot better yes…but we are crying like we are still living in the 1950’s it feels at times. Blacks are no longer enslaved, we will never be able to take back the past of destroying the native american culture, but we can be empathetic and yes recognize this is all apart of our history. So we need constructive solutions in how to move forward. Those solutions do not exist in the current government. Nor will it until it is completletely rebuilt. So yes, BLM is important to change, but is a very small step.
So yeah, why can’t a black person get a car? We all have to work hard and get them….I am basically asking in a society where our government especially in the USA does not give out hand outs, what are solutions for right now? Do they want what…socialism so we all collectively work ,pay higher taxes and pay for everyone else? I thought Americans hated socialism and communism. America in it’s current state will never give out hand outs to anyone, aside from the too many people that are living on unemployment. Even when we have booming jobs. (not currently) Maybe just maybe…some people OF ALL races are lazy, and those few are ruining it for those who truly need help. Another system that needs work. Dude we are so fucked….but what do we have? Each other and hope for a better tomorrow. But that tomorrow is far away.
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You Stated — “Okay, why can’t they drive? Does the government also have to buy them all cars?”
My Response — They have cars so I was referring to being harassed by the police Oo
You Stated — “What job are they working at that they are not getting equal pay?… all of which will pay equally. At least in my state”
My Response — What state are you in that has equal pay for equal work for everyone?
You Stated — “The Jews survived the holocaust and over came their shit. Why doesn’t anyone talk about that?”
My Response — We all talk about that, tv talks about that, the movies and news talks about that. There are even museums that have displays that talk about that. Same with American Indians, the Irish, the Italians, whites and blacks in America. We all talk about it so I’m not sure why you said that. Oo
You Stated — “but we are crying like we are still living in the 1950’s it feels at times.”
My Response — I don’t see people fighting back against the system as crying. I see it as a strength that most people do not have. Better to fight than to bend over. Better to yell than stand by.
You Stated –“why can’t a black person get a car?”
My Response — I’m not sure why I have to say this but black people do have cars Oo
You Stated — “I am basically asking in a society where our government especially in the USA does not give out hand outs”
My Response — Corporations get the largest cash handouts by the US government yearly… far above citizens.
You Stated — “Dude we are so fucked….but what do we have?”
My Response — Air conditioned car seats, Pet hotels, 900 TV channels, stores that throw away good food because it looks ugly, summer homes, food and alcohol in abundance, full open internet sex 24/7 and doggy daycare.
If we get anymore fucked we are going to need to book a spa weekend. Oo
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Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying, my bad. xD Most cops are bullies and abuse their power, though blacks and latino’s are the most targeted. I work in a town where they have too many cops, a rich town that keeps paying and wanting more cops. So I have been pulled over a few times and had bad run ins, yet I wasn’t doing anything wrong. O.o The problem with the town is police have to make quota and because they have too many it’s a joke. Mainly rich people in that town too, so there is like no crime. It makes no sense. Lol. Like I mentioned, anyone in those peaceful protests are becoming victims to police force and even brutality. I admit minorities are more targeted, but that is why we must end all police brutality. Racial issue or not.
I live in Michigan, USA. Most places at least in my area has equal pay. Most places in the USA has equal pay. Their are stimulations of course to ‘equal pay’ such as where you get hired into (some departments or sectors etc may have higher pay than others) or more experienced workers may make more pay, but I think that’s fair and not a racial attack? o.o If places don’t have equal pay, then I suggest to not get hired there and work for another company. O.o This is America, where we do have more options than most. Places can get legally charged for not giving equal pay, so how are these few places getting away with it? Can you tell me a company or work place that doesn’t give equal pay and discriminates against minorities?
Yes, I need to spend time researching the Jews.
Okay, you make a fair argument. However, every American is ‘privileged’ compared to most of the world that have far worse problems than we do. We can of course always do better, but I care about every atrocitity that takes place in our world and involved in such foundations or charities. Not just Americans or a certain race. BLM are clearly making it just about themselves and I witnessed it in the few different protests I went to. So I decided to stop supporting the movement itself, while still believing and fighting for equality for all races, including blacks. I don’t think it is as black and white (no I am not talking skin color.) as people make it out to be. It is why I truly believe right now it is all of us verse the system. Many people agree with black people the system is not working, and many of us including whites are left behind or lost in the system. I don’t get a hand out if I decide to quit my job or anything. My only privilege as people claim is I don’t get harassed by the police, yet I have before on many occasions, because again the majority of cops really do suck and abuse their power. What privileges do we have that they don’t have?
Yes, but the problem is a lot of Americans actually support the capitalistic society. It’s their country and they have just as a right as anyone else to those beliefs. I believe that food, shelter, health care etc all should be a basic human right, but I don’t find a lot of Americans who agree with me. The USA will never be socialistic or communist. We need to let go of that. You’d have better luck leaving the country then electing a government successfully that will give anyone hand outs. I think our biggest enemy actually is not so much capitalism, you will always have capitalism no matter where you go. SOmeone will always make more than you. We need to end materialism, and educate people on how that is harming us. You can fight for other changes in your system yes, but capitalism is not going away. Even socialistic countries have some form of capitalism.
Like that, I think on most points me and you agree on most things. I am just more government vs the people, and a lot needs to change. I fear movements like ‘BLM’ are more damaging to separating us, than uniting us. We are all human beings and we are all losing to the big corporations and governments in one way or another. It’s fine if they want to fight for their rights against the government, but I swear to god if I hear ‘white privilege’ one more time I might scream. Attacking my race is not solving the issue. Most disagree with what our ancestors did etc, and most want to try to move forward from that. I repeat again can anyone please share what privileges I have exactly? Then they say it is not an attack on my race, okay then stop putting any skin color in front of wording. I don’t blame the crime rate in Detroit on all blacks. Or whatever it may be. Again, there is the term ‘white trash’ I have known white people who grew up in poverty and were the most victimized growing up to things like bullying and getting assaulted at school on a daily basis. So this assumption of priviledge is quite wrong and stereotypical. There are only two ways to be successful in the USA and those two are you are either born into a succesful and rich family(you know the right people etc) or you work your ass off for it with no excuses. There are many successful black people in this country. The difference is they saw themselves as the best and used no excuses to get on top. Even if it is a little bit easier for us white folks, that is not really a great excuse to blame us for generations. Especially when most citizens agree that the system is broken.
I appreciate this discussion and your light humor on how awesome us humans are, because I am a pessimistic and don’t really believe or think our species deserve to live on, unless we advance and change our ways ASAP.
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You Stated — “I live in Michigan, USA. Most places at least in my area has equal pay. ”
My Response — Michigan, Yikes! That’s the state with one of the worst records. It’s so bad that there’s even an annual holiday to remind the public of the 20% gap in pay for women. They even have an activist group fighting in that state to end the lack of equal pay, “Michigan Equal Pay Day Coalition”
You Stated — “BLM are clearly making it just about themselves… I truly believe right now it is all of us verse the system… I am just more government vs the people… ‘BLM’ are more damaging to separating us, than uniting us… we are all losing to the big corporations and governments in one way or another… I am a pessimistic and don’t really believe or think our species deserve to live on”
My Response — Oo
It’s to bad BLM has to fight on the front lines to change the world while some think the war is an option.
Just saying
Even the United States knew they had to Join Russia to defeat Nazi Germany. You can fight now and take down the big bad with BLM or you can fight alone later against them all by your lonesome.
Just a Thought
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LANDER—
“We have statistics that clearly show heavy police “stop and frisk” policies on people of color.”
Why would that be, I wonder? Outright prejudice, or statistics? (Cop out: both)
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You Asked — “Why would that be, I wonder? Outright prejudice, or statistics?”
My Answer — It would seem that the motivating factor is money. Poor communities are less likely to fight in court so police have been using them to meet quotas. This further exasperates the community and causes long term damage to people’s lives (jobs, freedom, etc.)
It has also been found that terrorist groups like the klan have infiltrated police agencies. The damage done by them has been extensive, with false arrests, planting of evidence and police brutality. This is what body cams are starting to show us.
Below is a good example:
https://realitydecoded.blog/2019/08/26/convenience-store-clerk-arrested-62-times-for-trespassing-while-at-work/
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This diseased thinking might only pass through slow attrition. Doesn’t help in the now, especially with a president who *wants* to stoke the fires.
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I’m always hopeful it can change faster than that. I know it can change in a family in one generation, but there’s still too much negative influence sucking new people in the know better
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But isn’t the opposite true? His stoking the fire is the only reason the firefighters are here now to put it out.
This abuse has been on a slow burn way too long, too many people dead. I may not like Trump but he forces the conversation. He makes you take a side.
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In so many ways, if unpopular or unappreciated, Trump is indeed a catalyst for change. He’s forcing people, particularly Americans, to look at their status quo and have to decide if they will continue to support it, or turn against it.
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Agreed
To bad it had to be done this way
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Actually … I’m warming to him. Brrrrrr!
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There’s not anymore I can personally add to your post and comments Jim. I concur wholeheartedly.
I can say this however. The English Premier League has restarted today with two matches. The entire league, all clubs, all players, all staff, all officials, and all stadiums are displaying “Black Lives Matter” everywhere. For all of the games this week and weekend every single player’s jersey will have on the back “Black Lives Matter” instead of their last names! 🙂
This is now a full on GLOBAL Movement. It is way overdue too. I pity and spite the next white police officer that foolishly murders an unarmed black person who isn’t posing any mortal threat.
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Thanks boss. I would love to have an “all lives” proponent challenge this piece.
“ We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
That our deaths were not in vain, take on the charge for Floyd and a million others. Enough!
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Written many years ago in a novel, never published:
We are the dead, short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow.
The days are gone, our voices cry
We didn’t want to fucking die!”
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First, before I say anything else, ALM is not necessarily racist. As a person of colour, albeit creamy red (Metis), when I said all lives matter I was speaking my truth, and I am upset that I can no longer speak that truth because white people have, once again, usurped my words and made a beautiful phrase ugly. I resent that. I like to think on a cosmic scale, not some petty-minded human-only scale. To me, ALL lives do matter.
But I no longer use that phrase, because other people take away my meaning, and give it their meaning. Once again, I am being attacked by racism, human racism.
‘Nuff said.
So what should I be saying? ALL LIVING BEINGS MATTER! Even the dead ones, because they have or will be reincarnated somewhere, somewhen.
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You Stated — “I am upset that I can no longer speak that truth ”
My Response — But you just did, more than once I may add so I think you are in a safe space.
The issue is more of an act of kindness. Black people are asking for a moment in time to borrow a few words to change the deadly space they are living in.
One side is fighting to live and the other side is fighting for the vernacular copyright Oo
If you think, as you said, on a “cosmic scale”, then you already know that “Time” will return your words to you at some point. If we end this abuse of people I think they would happily say all lives matter because they would be standing side by side rather than underneath.
Just a thought
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When I am told I am a racist because I said all lives matter, then my words have been misunderstood, and misinterpreted. But even though I feel that way, I will not use that phrase for the time being. Just because I feel constricted does not mean I am golng to continue saying a l m. I can wait. This me will be disincarnated by then. Long live Louis Riel!
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You Stated — “When I am told I am a racist because I said all lives matter, then my words have been misunderstood, and misinterpreted.”
My Response — Isn’t the opposite true? Aren’t the words you’re using so easy to understand that no one is misunderstanding you? 3 simple words with no interpretation needed.
Maybe they are not calling you racist because of the words you are using but rather the context in which they are being used in.
Just Saying
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Are we getting anywhere with this discussion, Lander? It doesn’t feel to me like we are. There is no need for a devil’s advocate here. I cannot control how other people hear my words. Or how they react to them. All I can say is how I feel. The twain shall never meet.
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Conversation is not always comfortable but it does serve a purpose.
With that said I think we both did a good job in articulating our perspective, which in turn generates the most underrated resource on earth (Thought).
Hopefully that resource will help us or someone else down the road.
Thank you for you honest and direct opinions, they were helpful.
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Reincarnated? The term carries an awesome amount of baggage~
As for ‘somewhen’ I LOVE it!
Again I state: colour doesn’t matter a damn to me. What matters is beliefs, demonstrated by behaviours. But—
—but in many locations colour can be a good indicator of the behaviours one might expect. No?
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Unfortunately, yes. Too much yes.
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if someone’s mother dies, you don’t say “all parents die”. however true that statement, it is ignoring that there is grief on a personal level here and now!
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Well said!
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I haven’t seen that point as well expressed anywhere else. Yes black lives matter, just as much an any other color of lives. “All lives matter” should be taken for what it is: meaningless in the sense that it doesn’t need stating. It is redundant or deliberately used to cause misdirection.
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WHITE people might mean it that way. In one of Jill’s posts about a week ago, there was a little black boy carrying a sign. The first line said Black lives matter. The third line read all lives matter. Was he being racist? I doubt it. Was he misdirecting? I doubt it. Was he being honest to his beliefs? I think so. And I think he was right. And I know I am right. If you want to call me racist, please do.
But redundant? Never. Is it redundant to say, because I am already alive, I love life? While most people know they are alive, they seldom want to honour their lives. They barely admit they are alive. They take life so for granted that they have no idea how important it is that they have life. Life is by far the most important thing in the cosmos. Without life there is nothing. NOTHING!
Without life there is no love. Yet all kinds of people say love makes the world go round. Bullshit. Nothing does anything without life. There is no need to say anything more…
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You Stated — “Nothing does anything without life”
My Response — Electrons disagree with you
Most of what we see in the observable universe doesn’t appear to have any life and it’s doing most of the heavy lifting. Life at best seems to be a minor thing on the cosmic scale.
Just saying
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Just saying, you have to be there to see the electrons doing the heavy lifting. If you or something else is not alive to see that, or sense that, then there is no proof anything is happening. Life makes the electron go round!
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You Stated — “Just saying, you have to be there to see the electrons doing the heavy lifting”
My Response — But I’m here and I can’t see electrons and things are still happening Oo
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Round and round and round we go. How many r’s are in that? Right now, as far as we know, life exists to tell us about the electrons. If all life suddenly ended, there would be no one to say we were ever here. Catch 42.
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You Stated — “If all life suddenly ended, there would be no one to say we were ever here. “
My Response — Time would tell, no matter what comes and goes. It holds everything regardless of it’s current state.
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“An atom is now merely a convenient way of grouping certain occurences; it is convenient, up to a point, to think of the atom as a nucleus with attendant electrons, but the electrons at one time cannot be identified with those at another, and in any case no modern physicist thinks of them as ‘real.’—Bertrand Russel
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I like to think of electrons as being real…
It’s the photons that keep me up at night…
I’m almost positive those things aren’t real
https://realitydecoded.blog/2019/10/12/that-force-you-feel-when-pushing-two-magnets-against-each-other-is-light-and-it-doesnt-exist/
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Well, evidently they are real enough, but real what?
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Real particles.
Unless you look away
Then they are just possibilities in the form of waves
You may have been right the first time now that I think of it
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Time is a figment of human imagination. It is the only way our species makes sense of the fact we live in the now. No one and nothing else cares.
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You Stated — “Time is a figment of human imagination.”
My Response — Healthy bacon is a figment of human imagination… time is part of space
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Measuring doesn’t mean distance is segmented into time. But it’s a way for us to make sense of the duration we are manifest as physically being.
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I would agree that time isn’t segmented but distance is time since space is time. This is to say that a point in space can also be a point in time. A point in space can be stretched by gravity and thus also slow down time.
Strange as that sounds
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So you are saying a black person can state all lives matter, but if a WHITE for whatever reason you needed to capitalize it made it sound more racist btw. Wtf) says the same thing it is pointless or misdirecting? You are a hypocrite and is what is wrong with our society.
I honestly feel these latest protests more has to do with police brutality more than racism or anything else. #latinolivesmattertoo just saying….another race that is victim of police brutality a lot of the time. It is why I am not afraid to say all lives matter globally…including countries where whites have no rights. Also google white slavery while you’re at it or….how our history fails to mention there are non-white slave owners as well. Also look into the slaughter and brutality of farm animals for our mass consumption. Yes, I agree blacks right now need attention, but I think Latinos do as well right now as they are also a victim to police brutality. I am simply being called a racist because I am taking away the attention from one race and saying the USA has many issues, one includes ineqality, but many other issues as well. We not only erased black history or native american history out of history books, but we also don’t talk about human trafficking that took place years ago (and still does in some areas) of children, men, women etc of all races. When I say all lives matter, I simply mean just that. If anything humans have and always will be the most destructive species on this planet. I have lost most of my faith in humans, and don’t really care anymore to fix it much. I don’t think we are worth saving. So maybe I don’t really means our lives matter tbh.
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Not sure exactly what you are saying. I am not white, although to some I look white. Nor am I American. But as usual Americans want to control the language as well as the narrative. I am too tired to keep on fighting.
When I say all lives matter, I do not just mean human lives, but the lives of all living beings.
But to say this is just police brutality is to close your eyes tightly. Do police target whites walking around in areas of a city considered coloured. No! Because there are no police there to begin with. But put a person of colour, including latinos, in a white part of town, and the police go berserk. That is racism first, brurality second.
No, humans do not deserve to be alive, we are wantonly destroying all life around us. The universe would be better without us. But we are here, for now. Let’s learn to make the best of it, not the worst.
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The universe may not exist without us…
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As long as there is one cockroach, the universe is still there. Good one, Jim.
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Well, considering the earth peoples from time to time, and there have been five previous extinctions that we know of, why worry? Is your concern for the earth a legitimate concern, that you would question the process that has happened forever? Or is this just a role that you enjoy playing?
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To the best of my knowledge it is real. There is no purpose inherent in the process, just chaos. It is us who look for purpose, and that is why we think we find it–we want there to be purpose. But God, or gods, or superbeings do not provide purpose, just the appearance of it. I myself believe the process may eventually provide the purpose, if all things go in a certain direction. The possibility of that, one in a biliion billion billion billion. But it is up to living beings to find that direction, and keep it within the realm of that possible direction.
But this is not a space for details. All I can give here is hints of ideas, or is it ideas of hints. More time and space would be a necessity.
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In truth this is no subtlety at all , but merely the endless maze of confusion …
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We humans do like to make everything more difficult than it should be. But then, WHAT SHOULD IT BE?
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Exactly what it is. All these things we take sides on are as necessary as black is to white, lefts are to rights. Without the oppositions life we be a drag and the game would be over.
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Some of them I could do without. As usual, top 3, god, gold, and government, the three worst inventions of man.
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Oh, then I think I misunderstood you. I read it as if you were saying whites say it and when they say it is meaningless, but when black people say it then it’s okay and has some deeper meaning. I think I just mis read you and I completely agree with you and everything you said. Especially rights for animals because animals are so much better if you ask me than us humans that destroy everything we touch, including our own planet we need to live on. There is nothing like on a crappy day to have a pet come up and snuggle you. Animals are the best and I rate them higher than our own species. We could learn from them, but we don’t. I wouldn’t say we do not deserve to be alive, well maybe. We just need to change our priorities and stuff as soon as like NOW. Eventually though humans will kill ourselves off and the planet can hopefully restore itself still.
I have accepted most human destruction….war, corruption, violence etc…but two things that instantly breaks me down and loses my faith in humanity time and time again is any kind of animal or child abuse. But ignoring it or doing nothing about is not the answer either. Remaining silent to crimes against humanity or other beings is a crime in itself. Ignorance is a very powerful tool after all to keep us all at bay and to not step out of line. Etc. And it’s working.
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Agreed. No problem with the misreading, I do it myself a lot. It’s so hard to do tone and body language on a computer. Maybe that is something our Silicon Valley tech nerds can work on. It would be a big boon to internet communication.
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Practicing your digital body language can be the new “selfie” in the mirror fad
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So, get to work, Jim. I’m just the idea guy. My computer is so screwed up it would take a genie to rectify it. Please.
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Sha—
I use it as a simple Truth. Too many use it as a tool or a weapon.
Reality is in fact colour-blind. This is one of the reasons I am not a ‘racist’ — a meaningless word used for political effect. I am a ‘belief-est’, if your beliefs (demonstrated by your behaviours, not by what you spout/bleat/utter/say) clash with mine I cheerfully dislike you. And I don’t care who I offend (deliberately; if I offend by accident I’m desolated).
(That ‘you’ above is a generic, not specifically aimed at any individual.)
And it isn’t ‘meaningless’, sometimes the most obvious is the most in need of stating … and in simple ‘baby-talk’ terms at that.
So: All Lives Matter.
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If I were to say, WHITE lives matter I would be called a racist. If I were to say support these 10 WHITE business I would be called a racist. I think the slogan #BLM is wrong. Black is a color. We are humans. Let’s raise the population up together, not alienate it.
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So, BLM is unjustified in trying to level the playing field?
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You just said both and no one called you a racist Oo
Just saying
You Stated — “We are humans. Let’s raise the population up together, not alienate it.”
My Response — There lies the rub… many black people are not at the same level in society because of bad policies of discrimination that have not been removed.
To put it simply… if we raise everyone up right now many would still be far below since they were never where we are now.
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“You just said both and no one called you a racist Oo”
Yet I seem to recall a major media uproar when “It’s OK to be White” posters were spotted across college campuses a few years ago. Oo
Just sayin’ 🙂
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I’m not clear on how that applies to you.
You clearly could do what you said could not be done without being call a racist.
Are you saying that it’s not valid because of a negative response at a college campus a few years ago?
Please clarify.
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First off, I’m not sasha. Second, sasha wrote:
“If” is the operative word here. sasha didn’t actually say those things so much as postulate what would happen if someone were to utter them out loud in a public space. And given that innocuous statements like “Make America Great Again” and “It’s Ok to be White” and “All Lives Matter” sends people into a tizzy, it’s doubtful those statements would be received any better.
Here’s a link to a short video of a woman berating three other women of misusing their “white privilege” simply for removing BLM graffiti from a public building.
But if you feel confident that it can be done without receiving any negative feedback, let’s put your theory to the test. Go write “White Lives Matter” in a highly conspicuous place on a public building, and if it goes by without attention I’ll grant credence to your point.
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I thought you were responding because you shared the same odd condition of being able to do something but not feeling like you can. I thought you were speaking in the context of what me and Sasha were talking about.
If that’s not true then I’m still not understanding you Ron.
Are you saying that if I can make a public statement about white lives having meaning, then black people are not experiencing unfair exploitations by the police and law system?
Or
Are you saying that if I can’t write white lives matter on a wall in a random location without a stranger taking offense then white people are experiencing the same exact level of hardships from police and the law system as blacks?
Please clarify
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How much clearer can I make it? The point is that just because no one called sasha a racist for writing those statements in a comment on Jim’s blog doesn’t mean those same statements would generate similar disinterest when written in large, bold letters on a public building — especially since Jim closed his post by stating that “All lives matter is fundamentally racist to the core of white denial.”
So if “all lives matter” is considered racist, what makes you think “White Lives Matter” would be greeted more kindly? And if it’s OK to write one (BLM) but not the others (ALM, WLM), isn’t that a textbook definition of racism in action?
Moreover, what makes you think that blacks experience a greater level of hardship from police and law enforcement than whites? Can you provide compiled statistical data to back up that claim (and by data I mean actual data, not just someone’s say-so or an op-ed making that claim). Because a number of studies indicate that this is not the case.
Here’s one:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2870189
Here’s another:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550618775108
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You Stated — “So if “all lives matter” is considered racist, what makes you think “White Lives Matter” would be greeted more kindly?
My Response — So you are saying that the BLM movement, to end police abuse against people of color (and sometimes even death), should be stopped because individuals across America find terms like “White Lives Matter” to be racist.
That’s an interesting view but I don’t see how it makes sense. The KKK and Nazis don’t seem to have a problem with it while marching yearly across the US. Let’s agree to disagree with that one.
You Stated — “And if it’s OK to write one (BLM) but not the others (ALM, WLM), isn’t that a textbook definition of racism in action?”
My Response — I’m not aware of people not being able to write WLM. There are websites dedicated to white pride and white power where they write it all day long. It’s on t-shirts. I think I even saw it on tv during the recent Trump rally. Maybe what you mean is it’s socially unacceptable to write it on a building in a very liberal area but wouldn’t that be the same for BLM on a building in a very conservative area? I’m not sure there is any value in this thought and it seems distractive so let’s agree to disagree.
You Stated — “Moreover, what makes you think that blacks experience a greater level of hardship from police and law enforcement than whites?”
My Response — I never said they did or didn’t so I’m not sure why you are asking me this. I did state that the BLM movement is attempting to stop abusive police behavior in predominantly black areas. I never stated that it was a contest for who has the most abuse.
Here are a few examples of what they are fighting for, maybe this will help provide perspective.
https://realitydecoded.blog/2020/06/09/the-most-shocking-and-disgusting-videos-of-police-brutality-against-black-people-that-prove-reform-is-needed/
https://realitydecoded.blog/2020/05/28/is-prejudice-real/
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It appears you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill. The point is that slogans promoting non-whites are tolerated and encouraged while those promoting anything white are not — a clear double-standard it there ever was one.
And no, you didn’t state that “that the BLM movement is attempting to stop abusive police behavior in predominantly black areas.” or that “it was a contest for who has the most abuse.” But then again, I never said (or implied) that “if I can’t write white lives matter on a wall in a random location without a stranger taking offense then white people are experiencing the same exact level of hardships from police and the law system as blacks” either. And to pose it as a question just so you can claim “I never said that” seems a rather underhanded way of projecting your own thoughts into the conversation — don’t you think?
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You Stated — “It appears you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill.”
My Response — I thought we were just having a conversation, if you think it’s getting out of hand we can side bar it, I’m ok with that.
You Stated — “The point is that slogans promoting non-whites are tolerated and encouraged while those promoting anything white are not”
My Response — But isn’t the opposite true? Don’t people of color annually tolerate whites marching in the streets shouting white power with hoods on screaming ugly slurs? White people enjoy the freedom of marching in city after city yelling some pretty ugly things at black people every year under the guise of free speech but your argument is that the BLM movement has a special social power that white people do not have… and that makes BLM racist… Oo
Let’s agree to disagree
For the record we can move on to other conversations, I think we have both adequately posted our positions on this subject.
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Well … it IS okay to be white, no?
Or am I missing something here?
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I think the truth of the matter is that the only lives that really matter to anyone are our own and those in our immediate circle of friends, relatives, and personal acquaintances. To say you love everyone unconditionally and indiscriminately is preposterous. As Ayn Rand noted in one of her letters (in response to a question concerning Jesus’ instructions to “love one another and bear each other’s burdens”) :
“Love is the recognition one grants to value or virtue. Since all men are not virtuous, to love them for their vices would be a monstrous conception and a vicious injustice. One cannot love such men as Stalin or Hitler. . . . If one says one does, it merely means that one does not love at all. To love the ideal and also those who betray it, is to betray the ideal.”
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You read Ayn Rand? I haven’i read her for years, but one of my favourites in earlier times. Never very popular, and for one reason only: she called it as it actually is; and presented genuine solutions. People don’t like that …
People want ‘Pie In The Sky’ — Rand was a little more Churchillian (Blood, sweat, tears etc).
Reality doesn’t catch on and is ignored until it rears up and bites ’em on the butt.
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When I first came here, my husband and his friends were several of those people shouting All Lives Matter back in 2016. They felt so strongly about it that they recorded a song by that name. He’s White but what you might find most interesting is that his friends who joined in on this are Black. I’m not sure if I should blame him or them for being so willfully ignorant.
I took my time to really figure out what was going on and ultimately we clashed on that subject matter. I stood my ground. If I can take the time to educate myself despite what I was fed when I first came here, US born Americans have no excuse. Needless to say, this is one of the many reasons I’m divorcing him.
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That must have been quite a thought process; wanting to assimilate to a knew country and culture yet faced with such a dilemma. Trust yourself, I guess.
I lost two old friends this week over this topic. I essentially posted a short version of these key points on his whitewash of ALM. They went ad hominem, never addressed the argument, but were certain BLM is racist and they weren’t. I gotta hand it to them, the propaganda to join a cause, even unknowingly supporting racism..They are in it to win it and they don’t even know they’re the problem.
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It was a hell of a process trying to figure out who was in the right when the Black people I was around shared his prejudices and ignorances. I have no other friends who shared that sentiment, so I’m happy for that. Sorry to hear you lost yours on account of that, but sometimes it’s better that way.
I thought him and his friend would have been wise enough to delete the stupid song, but I just found it. I think I’ll write a post about it next week. Let me send him some free marketing traffic so he can learn a thing or two. 🤣
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Espousing ALM demonstrates no understanding of systemic injustice. All lives should matter, of course, but what Black Lives Matter is saying is, it’s time to recognize that black lives have not mattered, or certainly mattered less, than the rest. All Lives Matter is a red herring.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly. That’s why when I see White women get on Twitter and apologise for racist videos saying their boyfriends or husbands “influenced” them I rolled my eyes. Half my husband’s family is Republican. He and they had zero influence on my political stance as an immigrant here, so there’s no excuse.
We all have to take accountability for our actions and our beliefs. Unfortunately, some people enjoy being willfully ignorant.
Like you said, espousing ALM demonstrates zero understanding. I don’t know whether to hate them or pity them … Either way, we’re stuck sharing a country with them and I’m stuck being married to one who won’t sign my divorce papers. 🙄
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Here you don’t need “his” approval, acceptance or signature. Give good cause, done.
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I wish it was the same here. Georgia tends to want to preserve marriage so they aren’t keen on “divorce by default” which is what a one sided divorce is, if the other person doesn’t respond.
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To be fair, race itself doesn’t lend to inherent good judgment. People, in general, are not really empathetic, so when a (non-empathetic) person of color is born in a location where they don’t encounter a threat from the police, they don’t feel a need to support others.
We run into the same issue in all aspects of society, in all races and in all over the world. Most people allow bad things to happen without challenge.
To put it simply…. things will change for the better when people start to give a shit or they start to feel the same pain.
Just a thought
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I agree with that, but with a caveat: it has to be moved by individuals. Groups cannot be empathetic and when you get a mix of empathetic and non in a group, the non usually move into the leadership and that fuels retaliatory violence or it becomes just another political movement intent on its own survival and within which the real victims of systematic oppression are forgotten or worse, as in Stalin’s Russia, went from being oppressed by the Tsars to being oppressed by the totalitarian State. So, conclusion, no groups, no power groups to try to steal power from the existing oppressor to take it back. It’s the same power and it will accomplish exactly the same things the supplanted one did.
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I see your point and it makes sense, a stand alone complex would be better.
With that said, they tried that in the beginning but it didn’t seem to get the job done.
You are still right but I don’t think it would have moved forward had they not organized the movement. People just weren’t listening.
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I would agree with you if this person of colour wasn’t from “the hood”. He has had several encounters with law enforcement and is, in fact, a convicted felon. Last I heard, he was a fugitive of the law hiding out in Alabama.
You’d think he’d start asking questions about why they both did stupid and illegal things but only one of them went to prison. Sometimes it’s not lack of empathy. It’s ignorance and self-hate.
Even though it doesn’t apply here, I still take your point on empathy. Ben Carson comes to mind for that one.
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“Most people allow bad things to happen without challenge.” … bingo~!
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Jim, it’s too bad that you’ve lost friends over this. Good people should be able to disagree without throwing in the towel on each other. It is confusing. But, I also have read credible statistics that show the problem with the police is not so much systemic racism, but other things such as the difficulty of getting rid of “bad cops.” There have been a series of research articles recently published in the Wall Street Journal concerning this very issue.
I think an even more concerning issue in the inner city is not racism on the part of the police department, but the incredible rate of Black on Black violent crime among young African-American men which endangers the entire community. I feel there is a real correlation between this and the breakdown of the family, young men without good role models and consistent father figures.
Yet, where are the protests and outcry concerning this?
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Where is the outcry? This has nothing to do with it. Black on black, white on white, is a far cry from police brutality. Even gang violence comes with inherent and obvious risk, just as crime in communities happens. Its part of the job of life when you sign up. Part of what makes these police incidents so appalling is its coming from people who are highly trained and supposed to be the protector.
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I imagine that with the police most start out as idealists.
It’s experiences that make folks Realists. That, and role models; and I think it’s the survivors who go on to eventually become the next generation role models.
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Author’s point taken regarding “All lives matter.” (Americans should know this and should be self evident – shouldn’t need tot be said.)
I do think it’s important to define “Black lives matter” as a statement vs. BLM as an organization. I think that the lack of distinguishing between these distinct things is creating more disagreement than is necessary.
I would like to support the statement and sentiment “Black Lives Matter,” I’m good with agreeing with the statement and would even help pass sit on. The problem is that BLM adopted the phrase as their name, – by nature of this name trick we are forced to support, or forced to look like we support the BLM organization when many who agree with the phrase do not support BLM – organization poison-pilled a good phrase.
BLM should change their name so we can celebrate the phrase without promoting their organization.
BLM is a racist and political organization. Nobody is required to support them – same as people are not required to support any other organization.
I don’t support BLM because their tactics seem overly aggressive, they promote leftist ideas that I don’t agree with, and most of all, because people are being bullied into falling in line with them. Hell no, the country is still free, and Americans can decline to support, and call bullshit if that’s what they think. It doesn’t make them racist – the racist accusation is the bully’s big stick.
Cut the crap everybody, of course don’t be racist, but don’t feel like you have to promote, legitimize or be bullied by BLM. Support some other more peaceful and less Marxist organization advocating for black Americans.
And stop kneeling, It’s embarrassing – BLM has no ownership of your allegiance.
Let’s retire the BLM group so we can all share the mantra that “Black lives matter,” and mean just that and nothing more.
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Every movement tends to become the enemy they hate when it is institutionalized. I think your definition and parsing this way makes a lot of sense. It does appear though it began with the right intentions and began to escalate its position as a defensive stance to the all lives matter mentality.
Its too bad it immediately did not receive widespread support—the organization could have been a more accepted, positive force for change. It is frustrating to watch the back and forth bickering when the real problem is hardly debatable. Quite possibly though, the only thing at this point that will force an agreement is the massive protest, but we never get what we aim for—it always turns out different than we expect.
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Yup, good points. I agree with all of them.
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You Stated — “Let’s retire the BLM group so we can all share the mantra that “Black lives matter,” and mean just that and nothing more.”
My Response — That seems easy… remove the issue that fuels the movement – “Police using excessive illegal brutal force on civilians without punishment under the law”
I’m for the BLM movement because there didn’t seem to be a movement for the end to the police abuse. Once we take care of that problem it will be easier for me to hear you on the second issue.
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“the racist accusation is the bully’s big stick.”
Hah! Any racist is the ultimate in self interest.
Race, breed, creed, whatever — for myself I’m all for freedom and justice for all; so long as their utilisation of the licence doesn’t intrude on me or mine.
In my school everyone is entitled to his own beliefs, and to freely discuss them. The first to use force declares himself unworthy. (And yes, being an MCP I use the masculine because my language lacks the gender-neutral it needs. BUT: any female of our species may likewise; and I shan’t be upset. To each his own, no?)(It’s called Freedom, dammit!)
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All lives matter
Black lives matter
Blue lives matter
Brown lives matter
Red lives matter
Yellow lives matter
White lives matter
What do these slogans all have in common? They are tribalist, exclusionary, divisive and counterproductive to the public discourse.
They are also glittering generalities: vague words and fluffy phrases that evoke great emotional appeal and conviction without conveying any real information. And because they mean different things to different people they are ultimately empty and meaningless statements. They are devoid of logic. They are employed by propagandists.
Ask yourself: do all lives of any group really matter? What about the rapists, murderers, serial killers, fraudsters, thieves, arsonists, pedophiles, etc. found within any group? Does Hitler’s life matter? What about Stalin’s? Or Mao’s? Or Pol Pot’s? Or Pinochet’s? OR Duvalier’s? Or the Spanish inquisitor’s? Or the Muslim Jihadist’s?
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Or bloggers? Good points Ron. Its like campaign slogans. Meaningless appeal to emotion. Thanks.
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I think I understand your disapproval of “Black lives matter” (and the others).
What do you think would be a better Title message from the black people who are frustrated with the system? Or do you think they shouldn’t have one at all?
Just curious
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How about:
Personal Responsibility Matters
Take charge of your life and quit making excuses for your own failures. Finish school. Acquire marketable skills. Find employment — or better yet, start your own business. Take care of your health. Avoid drugs and alcohol and gangs. Wait until you’re financially stable before having kids.
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I’m not sure how that solves the problem of law abiding citizens being stopped and frisked outside of their constitutional rights.
I’m also not clear on how that solves home invasion shootings without a warrant.
I’m also not sure how that solves detaining citizens without charging them with a crime, which again, is a violation of the law.
Ron your reply didn’t address any of the concerns that are being exasperated by simple skin pigmentation.
Do you have any input on these concerns or are you attempting to change topics?
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You asked me to come up with a better slogan for black people who are frustrated with the system, and I responded. But few people welcome that response because it’s easier to blame some illusory “system” for all your problems than to focus on taking individual responsibility for one’s own life.
And the “skin pigmentation” argument is the real red herring here, because law-abiding citizens don’t pass counterfeit bills. Nor do they commit theft, or assault or armed robbery. Nor do they resist arrest. Nor do they riot and loot stores and burn down neighborhoods to protest injustice. Nor do they promote or celebrate the “thug life” in song and pop culture. These are all manifestations of the unlawful and morally bankrupt — regardless of their skin color.
Moreover, if less lethal police interactions and upholding the constitutional rights of individuals are truly the overriding concerns, then why not adopt a slogan that reflects those goals? Because those things affect all demographics, not just blacks.
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Ron, you still havn’t addressed what I asked.
My questions were about law abiding people. You are stating that criminals deserve any treatment they get, which is not what I was asking.
Unless of course you are saying that black people are never innocent.
Please clarify.
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Where did I state that criminals deserve any treatment they get? Or that black people were never innocent? Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.
And do you really believe that cops only target innocent blacks? Or can you accept that a fair number of innocent white-, red-, yellow- and brown-skinned people suffer mistreatment at the hands of cops, as well?
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You Asked — “Where did I state that criminals deserve any treatment they get?”
My Response — You stated that people of color are playing a blame game about some type of imaginary police encounter rather than simply being responsible people.
Your statement was clear — “it’s easier to blame some illusory “system” for all your problems than to focus on taking individual responsibility for one’s own life.
Keep in mind — That many people of color are being hospitalized and some dying from, as you explained, illusory encounters. Based on your statement it was clear that a person making up something is responsible for the condition they are in afterwards. If I missed something in this statement please clarify.
You Stated — “Or that black people were never innocent? Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.”
My Response — I didn’t say you did, I asked you to clarify so that I could understand what you are saying.
You Stated — “And the “skin pigmentation” argument is the real red herring here, because law-abiding citizens don’t pass counterfeit bills.”
My Response — I’m not sure what you are talking about Ron, Mr. Floyd was not arrested and taken into custody. There has been no trail or evidence presented that states he passed a counterfeit $20 bill. No jury has convicted him. He is innocent until proven guilty ergo he is still a law-abiding citizen. If this is not correct please clarify.
You Stated — “Nor do they promote or celebrate the “thug life” in song and pop culture.”
My Response — Are you saying in this statement that if music entertainers, performing songs, promote the words “thug life” or hire actors that play a role exemplifying thuggish behavior, then Floyds encounter with the police is justified?
Just out of curiosity, do you believe kids who play violent games are justifiably subject to similar violence? I’m really curious about your perspective given your statement.
You Stated — “These are all manifestations of the unlawful and morally bankrupt”
My Question — Are the police then lawful and morally just in their application of force? I’m asking because I’m not clear if you are ignoring my focus on the position or if you are providing justification for bad police behavior.
You Asked — “if less lethal police interactions and upholding the constitutional rights of individuals are truly the overriding concerns, then why not adopt a slogan that reflects those goals?”
My Response — I believe the goal is for black people in depressed areas to be freed of police brutality that goes unchecked and unpunished. I don’t believe they started a movement for people outside their community.
You Stated — “And do you really believe that cops only target innocent blacks?”
My Response — I don’t know who they target or if it’s just random. Police have not shared publicly why they are breaking the law and abusing citizens.
I’m curious….., if they target whites also (and let’s say more whites than blacks for sake of argument), are you saying that black people should not protest their treatment by police because more violations on the public equal less need to hold them accountable by any one race?
You Asked — “Or can you accept that a fair number of innocent white-, red-, yellow- and brown-skinned people suffer mistreatment at the hands of cops, as well?”
My Response — I don’t see why any data on other races being mistreated by the police would be rejected by me. In fact from my perspective it would lend value to the BLM to end their ability to do so. If you think otherwise please clarify.
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How does: “it’s easier to blame some illusory ‘system’ for all your problems than to focus on taking individual responsibility for one’s own life.”
equate to: ” You are stating that criminals deserve any treatment they get, which is not what I was asking. Unless of course you are saying that black people are never innocent.”?
It’s a complete non sequitur. And if I didn’t write it, why imply that I did?
However, that said, Mr. Floyd was hardly the saint the media portrayed him to be. Or even a law-abiding citizen. His rap sheet indicates he was a career criminal who served a decade of time behind bars for multiple convictions including the possession of cocaine, theft and aggravated robbery (the latter being a home invasion in which he held a gun to a pregnant woman’s stomach while searching for drugs and money).
Nor was he some wrongfully-accused innocent bystander in this instance, either. The 911 caller (a store clerk) clearly identified Mr. Floyd as the man who had (allegedly) passed him counterfeit bills to pay for cigarettes and goes on to state that Mr. Floyd appeared to be visibly drunk and not in control of himself.
Click to access wcmsp-224718.pdf
The toxicology report taken during his autopsy revealed the presence of multiple drugs (Fentanyl, Norfentanyl, 4-ANPP, Methaphetamines, and THC) in his system at the time of death. That same autopsy report also revealed that Mr. Floyd had heart disease, hypertension and tested positive for COVID-19, but had suffered no life-threatening injuries.
Click to access Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf
The reason he was not arrested and taken into custody was because he resisted getting into the police car and had to be subdued. And while the application of a Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint appears extreme, it is (or at least was) considered a standard protocol in gaining compliance from uncooperative suspects prior to Mr. Floyd’s death. Nonetheless, the police officers involved were fired and now face criminal charges that could result in long prison sentences.
So while it’s fair to say that Mr. Floyd was denied due process in this instance, it’s equally fair to say that his past criminal convictions invalidate any claims to his having been an innocent law-abiding citizen. And more importantly, race had absolutely nothing to do with his detention because he wasn’t detained for being black — he was detained for having (allegedly) passed counterfeit bills following a positive ID from the clerk who claims to have received those bills.
As to the “thug life” promoted by pop culture, pick one (and defend it):
– living in an environment that promotes the gang lifestyle influences your decisions
– living in an environment that promotes the gang lifestyle does not influence your decisions.
Because all the evidence seems to indicate that living in a violent neighborhood surrounded by people who take drugs and pressure you into joining a violent gang, most definitely does. And no, I don’t believe playing violent video games creates violent people. But promoting a culture that glorifies violence, most certainly does.
In answer to your question “Are the police then lawful and morally just in their application of force?”, I would say yes, but only to the extent that said force is necessary to contain those who initiate (or threaten to initiate) force against others. That is to say, the police possess the same rights we’d normally possess in terms of self defense for ourselves or others, but no more.
By their own admission, at least two of the BLM’s founders claim to be “trained Marxists”. That makes them a political movement. And one of BLM’s stated goals is to dismantle the nuclear family structure in favor of a community-centered collective:
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
. . . a goal that runs counter to every study showing that regardless of race or income level, children who grow up in a two-parent family headed by a strong male role model fair better by every metric (behavioral, economic, educational, and social) than a single-parent family with no father figure. What they propose might work in some small, close-knit indigenous tribe of a few hundred people, but fails miserably when applied on a larger scale. I know from my own experiences doing charitable work that the more people you involve in any given project the less effort any specific individual puts in to making that project work, because it’s just human nature to slack off if you think others will fill in the gaps.
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When an individual is subdued by law enforcement to the point that they “can’t breathe” — and the subduing officer casually sits with his hand in his pocket during this desperate cry, it would seem that no matter what “chemicals” are in the individual’s body or what “crime: the person may or may not have committed, the humane thing to have done would have been for the office to (at the very least) shift his position — while still keeping control — to allow that person to “breathe.”
As the old saying goes … There’s more than one way to skin a cat.
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It’s also easy to play the armchair quarterback and rattle off how we might have handled things better. But the situation takes on an entirely different perspective when you’re the one tasked with making split-second decisions in the heat of the moment. Mr. Floyd was a big man and no doubt difficut to hold down. Witnesses also report that Mr. Floyd was claiming he couldn’t breathe prior to being pinned to the ground. Perhaps it was due his heart condition, or because he had overdosed on drugs, or a symptom of having COVID-19, or some combination of thereof. In retrospect, the neck hold probably exacerbated the problem which led to Mr. Floyd’s demise. Should the officer have known better and acted differently? Who knows. Perhaps the officer ignored the “I can’t breathe” plea because previous suspects had proffered it as a ruse to avoid being taken into custody.
Then again, the police officer in question was probably no angel either. It’s reported he was accused of misconduct at least 17 times and had received at least one disciplanary action. And it’s also been reported that both men worked as private security guards at the same Minneapolis night club, and may have known each other. So perhaps the officer had a personal vendetta against Mr. Floyd and used the 911 call as an opportunity to enact his revenge. Or perhaps he really was a racist asshole. Again, we can only speculate until a thorough investigation into the circumstances surrounding the event has been completed.
Cause and effect, chain of events
All of the chaos makes perfect sense
When you’re spinning round, things come undone
Welcome to the Earth, third rock from the Sun. ~Joe Diffie
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I’d hardly say I was playing “armchair quarterback” when I watched the VIDEO of what was happening. Besides, all I suggested was the cop could have shifted his position enough to allow Floyd to breathe. IMO, the image of him with his hand in his pocket exemplifies his intentions to do whatever harm he could. And “split-second decisions”??? He had George Floyd under his knee for nearly 9 minutes! Give. Me. A. Break.
Further, several comments you made (e.g., “no doubt difficult to hold down”; “perhaps it was …”) are no less “armchair quarterback” remarks than any you seem to think I made.
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And based solely on that video did you also conclude that Mr. Floyd’s actions played no role in the events leading up to his death? Or that the officer’s actions were predicated entirely on his unfettered hatred toward blacks? Or that all LEOs across the nation are racists by association? Because that certainly appears to be the view promoted by the MSM and BLM in advocating for the immediate abolition of all police departments.
The last time people jumped to false conclusions about what actually transpired was when they were shown a snippet of a face-off between Nathan Phillips and the Covington School teens.
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Please do NOT put words and/or thoughts into or add conclusions about what I’ve written in my comments. I CLEARLY pointed out I was referencing what I saw on the video. I made NO reference to Mr. Floyd’s history or any actions that led up to the incident that was portrayed on the video.
For all I know, he could have been gone through town wielding a hatchet and slashing off people’s heads before he was caught. This is why I limited my comments to what I personally saw on the video.
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Fair point. I’ll retract my statements implying that they were your thoughts on the matter.
However, I won’t do likewise for the MSM or BLM which has turned this into a show trial. And I still maintain that we should reserve judgement on the officer’s actions until all the evidence has been presented and the trial verdict is reached.
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I agree … to a point. The “evidence” (at least for me) is clear based on the video. However, you are correct that ALL the facts should play a part before determining any actions against the LEO.
I hope you will agree, however, that while not ALL members of LE are racists and/or bigots, the ones that are generally let it all hang out when dealing with individuals they feel strongly about.
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You Stated — “However, that said, Mr. Floyd was hardly the saint the media portrayed him to be.”
My Response — So it’s not the other reasons we have been talking about, it’s now really because the individual is a bad person. I wonder if this is something like bad people getting what they deserve Oo
Good or Bad, the individual wasn’t arrested, was not convicted, did not have his day in court but was assaulted and was killed.
I’m tempted to have a google search war with you over his good and bad points but it’s irrelevant to the fact that he was abused by corrupt police officers who (lucky for them) were treated like human beings when they were charged with a crime, arrested, taken into custody, allowed to post bail and are now awaiting a court date.
If they had followed the law and done the same for Floyd this could have all been avoided.
Just a Thought
Lets agree to disagree
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Agree to disagree only comes into play over differences of opinion in taste, not matters of fact. And the facts reveal that Mr. Floyd was not a law-abiding citizen. Because had he been one, there would have been no police encounter and he’d still be alive.
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You Stated — ”Mr. Floyd was not a law-abiding citizen. Because had he been one, there would have been no police encounter and he’d still be alive.”
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The difference between your opinion and mine is due process.
If what you said were true then why have the police involved been arrested and processed?
How do you reconcile that fact?
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The police were fired and charged because it appears the officers used undue force to restrain Mr. Floyd. But that doesn’t change the fact that Mr. Floyd: had a criminal record that includes convictions for theft aggravated assault, was implicated in passing counterfeit notes, resisted arrest and was high on illegal drugs at the time of his death — all traits that disqualify him from being called a law-abiding citizen.
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It’s strange how you don’t speak of the officers as criminals since they are clearly not law-abiding citizens.
You also don’t site any of their unlawful history which we are starting to see but you do for Mr Floyd… interesting
You said, and I quote, “it appears the officers used undue force to restrain Mr. Floyd” Oo
The charge is second degree murder, why not say, “it appears the officers murdered Mr. Floyd”
You speak as if factual but the details seem a bit biased
Let’s keep it simple: The police unlawfully detained Mr Floyd, then murdered him.
They should have charged him with a crime immediately, incarcerated him immediately, allowed him to post bail immediately , released him and set a court date.
I watched the video like billions of other people, it was ridiculous. They paraded him from location to location without charging him, continuously violating his rights until finally intentionally cutting of air flow to his brain and killing him.
They intentionally ignored obvious pleas from concerned citizens to remove the knee from his neck.
Your argument is disconnected from the factual reality.
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Now who’s skipping due process?
Yes, it appears they used undue force; because in order to call it murder, you’d first have to prove that the officer intended to kill Mr. Floyd — and at this point there is no evidence that was the case. And “charged with” does not equate to “found guilty” in a court of law. Nor can you rightfully call someone a criminal until they’ve been duly convicted of an actual crime in a court of law. Yet based solely on said video, the court of public opinion has already rendered a guilty verdict; and the marixist, terrorist organization BLM has determined it was due to systemic racism against blacks and started a #defundthepolice campaign calling for “radical” solutions which led to the subsequent looting, vandalism, arson and attacks on police officers across the nation.
As for the facts:
– Mr. Floyd was not unlawfully detained. He was the subject of an investigation following a 911 call in which he was identied as the prime suspect. Nor was he denied due process, because third-party surveilance video shows Mr. Floyd refusing to get into the squad car, which makes completion of the arrest and booking procedure rather difficult. Had he gone peacefully, there would have been no need for further restraint.
– Mr. Floyd’s criminal convictions are a matter of public record. There were eight convictions within an eight-year time span, including one conviction for aggravated robbery.
– Mr. Floyd’s autopsy report is also a matter of public record. It states he had a heart condition and tested positive for COVID-19. It also determined there were no neck injuries. And the toxology report also lists all the legal and illegal drugs found present in his blood and urine samples at the time of death.
So unless those facts are in error, my arguments are firmly grounded in reality.
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You Stated — “So unless those facts are in error, my arguments are firmly grounded in reality.”
My Response — A reality that changes is not firm it’s flexible.
Example:
You Recently Stated — “Nor was he denied due process, because third-party surveillance video shows Mr. Floyd refusing to get into the squad car, which makes completion of the arrest and booking procedure rather difficult.”
But:
You Also Stated — “So while it’s fair to say that Mr. Floyd was denied due process in this instance, it’s equally fair to say that his past criminal convictions invalidate any claims to his having been an innocent law-abiding citizen.”
What if the reality is even simpler? What if you apply different standards for the officers than you do for Mr. Floyd. What if you do this based on bias. What if you have a habit of changing your argument to support a flawed position.
Just A Thought
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J
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It only appears to be contradictory because the sentences have been stripped from their original context. In the first instance I was referring to the fact that he did not get to have a proper trial (because he died due to what appears to be an unnecessarily prolonged and undue application of force). In the second I was referring to the fact that the arrest procedure could not completed (not because the officers didn’t make the attempt, but because Mr. Floyd thwarted their attempts to take him into custody). None of which invalidates any of the other facts presented.
And contrary to your assertions, I’ve never been a police apologist. In my view, most police agencies are little more than state-sanctioned criminal organizations operating for their own benefit under their own set of gang colors. It’s not necessarily that all LEOs are bad; it’s just that police unions protect bad cops from getting fired in the same way that teachers unions protect bad teachers from getting fired.
However, I also submit that “there oughta be a law against that” proponents who want more state intervention and elect officials who promise to enact even more legislation forfeit any right to complain about police brutality when the state then actually sends out agents to enforce those new laws they petitioned for. Because what did they expect would happen? It’s an inescapable fact that creating new laws will create a whole new category of law-breakers, which leads to more initiation of force and more constitutional rights violations. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
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You Stated — “In the first instance I was referring to the fact that he did not get to have a proper trial (because he died due to what appears to be an unnecessarily prolonged and undue application of force).”
My Response — But didn’t you state that he died from lack of being a good citizen?
You Stated — “the facts reveal that Mr. Floyd was not a law-abiding citizen. Because had he been one, there would have been no police encounter and he’d still be alive.”
con·text
noun
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
I think I understand the context you have been framing Mr Floyd and the BLM movement in.
You Stated — “In the second I was referring to the fact that the arrest procedure could not completed (not because the officers didn’t make the attempt, but because Mr. Floyd thwarted their attempts to take him into custody).
My Response — I remember there being 7 or so min where they could have taken him into custody. Oo
Just Saying
You Stated — “And contrary to your assertions, I’ve never been a police apologist.”
But You Also Said Earlier — “In answer to your question “Are the police then lawful and morally just in their application of force?”, I would say yes, but only to the extent that said force is necessary to contain those who initiate (or threaten to initiate) force against others.”
My Response — But the Man is dead and the force was unjust so why make this statement in this discussion if not to be apologetic? Context right?
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Wow~!
And furthermore: I like it! But—
—but as there’s apparently an exception to every rule—there are exceptions to some lives ‘mattering’. Otherwise there’d be nobody happy to serve their own folks by killing others’ folks. No?
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This black activist seems to have a very balanced and reasonable view IMO. But, what do you think?
https://www.foxnews.com/media/chicago-black-lives-matter-gun-violence-cities
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You Asked — “This black activist seems to have a very balanced and reasonable view IMO. But, what do you think?”
My Answer — I listened to the guest on Fox News and he seemed disingenuous, not well informed, and somewhat nonsensical in his commentary to the host.
I base this on the obvious fact that he is conflating two separate issues and ignoring the fact that the targeted issue from BLM directly affects the issue he is fighting for in Chicago.
The BLM movement is targeting abusive police behavior that causes people of color to fear contact with law enforcement of any kind.
His movement is to stop criminal behavior from impacting law-abiding citizens of color in areas that have a larger concentration of black citizens.
It seems obvious that criminals will take advantage of an environment where people are afraid to contact law enforcement.
The law-abiding citizens trying to survive in areas where they don’t have the resources to leave, find themselves in a “war of sorts” on two fronts. They aren’t equipped to fight criminals and they are fearful of reaching out to the police. Oo
This guest is either completely unaware of this because he is not familiar with the situation and the community or he is purposely ignoring that fact for a reason that doesn’t honor either cause.
Simply put if: If you can remove the abusive police from that environment and rebuild the public trust, you will then have a partnership within the community to identify the criminal element and also remove it.
He even later goes on to say something completely inflammatory about the desire for criminal elements in society to break into the homes of other criminals to cause them harm as a solution. I’m not an expert on gun violence but this seems counterintuitive to his cause.
Just Saying
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Sadly my reply has to be on hold until we get back from town later. But in the meantime I go with “If any lives matter—it’s either the my-opic, or all”.
No ifs, no butts … when I use “all lives matter” I mean it, as-is, where-is … twist that how they may. (And they will try, you can bet on it.)
“They, Mr Argus?”
“Yep. Anyone who don’t think like me* …”
* Rationally, objectively, as pure as the driven snow (oops) … soot? (Oops …)
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I am compelled to support “black lives matter” because of my fundamental belief that “all lives matter.”
If someone doesn’t believe “all lives matter” they are more likely opposed to dealing with the truth of racism and equality.
Racism exists and we should deal with it in a fact based way.
It is an issue that affects us all, but frequently gets lip service or emotional knee-jerk reactions that end up polarizing those who don’t see the full picture.
If we don’t get to the root of the issues with facts, we will never have sustainable solutions.
Took a stab recently at understanding the state of the challenge. This is what I wrote:
https://shivamber.com/we-must-have-a-conversation-about-policing-and-racism-in-america/
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