“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7
—The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery. and woe “ The word also refers to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures.
If god created everything “but” one thing—how would this even be possible? Is she that good?
On another note, Jesus stands on the right hand of god, but who stands on the left? Why does it never say? Never let your left hand know what your right hand is doing… There are clues so lets take a look.
Isaiah sums it up just fine but so does Job. Satan is the prosecutor set to test Job, while Jesus is the defense attorney. After striking a back-room deal, all three were in on the trials of Job—together! They are one in purpose and different in approach, but working together no doubt—if any of it were true. It actually makes a better Hindu script.
In Hindu philosophy this all works just fine. God is everything and nothing happens that doesn’t happen to god. It’s the best thing going to relieve the boredom’s of infinite living. In fact it’s a drama so interesting that it comes and goes in cycles forever. It is your karma, meaning; it is your doing.
Christianity is at odds with its own doctrine. Contradiction #1267 and counting. It’s what happens when you shoehorn monotheism into an obvious knot.
The goal is to identify what is actually going on; not what we wish was going on…
TheCommonAtheist 
In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. So God punished him . . . for the lulz.
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Yes all in good fun. Maybe life was just too good, and too much of anything isn’t good for you (or it gets boring) so we spice it up with some excitement
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Not sure if this has anything to do with what you are saying, Jim, but without God there can be no evil. There are harmful, nasty, and brutish things we can do to each other but evil is impossible. However, given that the story of Job exists in a book supposed to be the word of this god, what he did to Job was pure evil. What a stupid thing to do to a high-grade worshipper! And to what purpose?
Just more evidence the bible was written by men, it is such a human thing to do.
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what is the difference between “harmful”, “nasty”, “brutish”, and “evil”? I ask sincerely since I see them all as forms of moral darkness. (Aside: I think “evil” is to “live” backwards! So the more I truly live, the less evil I give and receive;)
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In my mind, evil is a condition of religion, or even just a belief in God. As there is no godliness in life, nor is there evil. Harmful, nastiness, brutishness, all those things can be used to describe humans. Evil is a non-starter.
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I have come to see the Scriptures as a book of questions rather than answers, a provocation to travel, not to settle. I think if I really ask and contemplate the questions it provokes, the answer sometimes, certainly not always, appears there in the words. This is one way I have come to better know the personality of the one who inspired them.
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Ah, but we cannot be sure there ever was such a person, or if if there was, we do not know what he was like. The gospels were not written by eye-witnesses. This makes them more than questionable.
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“We” as in every single human or specifically those with an elevated perch?
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We, as in every single person. You can think you can know, but in the light of dawn even you cannot. You can believe, and you can believe you know, but the opportunity to have witnessed the the things you believe in is gone, as is the history, which may never have happened. You can even have faith, but, no, no one can ever know.
But neither can I know none of it did not happen. Such is life.
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How does one know that no one can know something unless one truly knows all there is to know ? I think I see now what we mean when we say something is a “no know”… I feel another poem coming on.
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Have at it, and good creating to you. If I can find the one I am thinking of at this moment, I will send it to you.
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with blinded eyes
could i but see with blinded eyes
the world around me new
i should see things i cannot see
do things i cannot do
for i was taught while yet a child
there are things cannot be done
nothing is but can be seen
always two from one plus one
and thus my eyes were sighted
but know i they are blind
i would see not only with my brain
but also with my mind
sighted eyes see blinded sight
so thus the blind can see
things that i cannot be shown
for i see only me
could we but see with blinded
eyes
the world around us new
we should see things that can’t be
seen
do things we cannot do
a poem by rawgod, dedicated to Jacqueline Heidinger, née Moffat, circa 1984
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Your poem, “with blinded eyes” is exhilarating. I find it captures a wonderful moment of liberation. Thanks for sharing.
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Than, you for liking it.
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I make light, therefore, shadow.
I give well being, therefore calamity.
I give life, therefore death.
light and peace and life are.
shadow, chaos and death are not.
I am. So, I know what is not and I love what is.
I am light, peace and life. These I worship. They are my God, my father, my true love.
In them I sink into the shadows of pain and death and rise again to life and peace and light.
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Is this yours? Very nice
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Yes. Thank you! It is my response to your take on Isaiah 45:7. Your posts always drive my thought into new areas. This passage has fascinated me too.
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very beautiful, Frederic!
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The words, the poetry, are yours, Frederic? But they are actually supposed to come from Christ, are they not?
I find no beauty in them. Just pandering. Especially the line, “shadow, chaos, death are not.” Shadow is neither here nor there, but chaos is what I find to be beautiful, and death I find to be a necessary part of life, the doorway to spiritual renewal.
After seeing the the praise given you by Jim and Monica, I felt the need to disabuse you of the idea everyone is impressed by your words. I, for one, am perplexed, and even a bit insulted. And do it goes…
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Simply a well written piece. He is able to express himself well here whether I agree or not.
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Possibly. Today I an more concerned with content over form. Tomorrow I might feel differently.
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“death I find to be a necessary part of life, the doorway to spiritual renewal.”
[citation needed]
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This is my belief, Ron, and cannot be cited. It is my experience of life. The closest thing I can give you to a citation is that it is the theme of my long creative writing work called The Crazy Man Tapes, which can be found at https://rawgod.tripod.com/FirstLife/index.htm
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Ok. But the devout religious follower offers reasons similar to yours (i.e., “This is my belief/experience and it cannot be empirically demonstrated.”)
Given the multitude of competing “faith” claims and no agreed upon metric for evaluating those claims, how does one determine which ones are bunk and which one are genuine?
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Good question, Ron, and if you have spent a lifetime battling theists over it, you know, if nothing else, you need to consider the source. Xians are just parroting the party lines. Atheists, including both of us, have come to our positions–experience-based positions–only after having examined the facts as we know them to be.
I have taken the facts about cells given to me from science–which I hope I can trust more than I trust anything from religion, any religion–considered them in light of my own experiences, and come to the best conclusions I can at this time in my life.
Please remember, I am not try to give anyone my truth, but only letting them, and you, become aware of my understanding, or theory, on the subject under discussion. I have no need to spout capital T Truth. For me, most truth is relative to our position in time and space. Truths change as our environments change, including scientific truths. Here one day, changed the next.
My message to anyone who reads me is not that what I write is gospel truth, but rather my attempt to understand life under conditions as I presently understand them.
What you do with them, if anything, is up to you.
What I write is genuine, for me, from only me.
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Not from Christ. From the source from which I also come. I am, so I worship (love devotedly) that which IS in purest form. There are shadows in me and death.
Chaos is an opportunity to create. It’s also cancer and savagery I’d like to see banished by healing and contentment. So some chaos is thrilling to me and some is utterly terrifying.
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… Better put I’d say, from me as I perceive the source, what I imagine to be wonderful and good. Words are such gangly things!
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For myself, nothing is terrifying, not even death. There are things I would prefer to never encounter, but terrifying is a very strong word. I am prepared for my death.
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“The Lord” also tests people. Why I do not know. It is almost as if he didn’t know how the tests would come out.
The people making up this bullshit didn’t really think it through. The god-power of omnipresence is entirely unnecessary, for example. Old Yahweh doesn’t need to be eavesdropping to hear or see anything as he already knows that stuff. He also doesn’t need to be right there to take action as he seems fully capable of creating galaxies millions of light years away. But the behavior-controlling power of a god who is constantly looking over your shoulder was just too good to pass up by priests wanting to control your behavior.
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I agree. I misunderstood testing for a long time. We’ve been subject to standards put on us by others from childhood and I thought it existed to prove to others that I studied or in some way was worthy. The real value of a test is for myself. I want to know that what I’ve learned is true and effective and that I can live by it. This could be a sport, artistic or technical skill, or my understanding of life, my spiritual foundation. I agree, Omniscience already knows the results. It knew Adam’s and Eve’s outcome. So why would it test my behavior? The only value I can see in the test is that THEY didn’t know it. I don’t know the result. The only value in God testing my faith would be for me to see the value of my faith. Either my faith will be my treasure because it has sustained me in a time of no other hope or it is weak, worthless and a useless burden. I don’t like hardship but I am thankful for what it has shown me about my faith. I needed to see it be tested to the final degree before I could fully believe (be living) by it. It had to be thrown to the curb to be proven worthy. I don’t think it is a test of how much I believe but it tests WHAT I believe so I can adjust my thinking where needed. That’s one reason I read and listen to the thoughts of atheists. They have a more objective view of my faith than I do. My spiritual experience is first personal and emotional. Listening to others is one way I can allow my ideas about life to be tested.
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neither blind faith nor lack of faith due to absurd doubt is not the way. both, i think, lead to closed mindedness that is unhealthy, untrue, and terribly unpleasant to those around!
thankfully, life always presents us with opportunities for inner growth. let’s stay open and attentive
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lol
Lack of faith isn’t predicated on “absurd” doubt — it’s the logical response to those who advance propositions that cannot be backed up with supporting evidence.
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what if we approached god, not as that stagnant ‘entity’ we usually think of here in the west, and think of god as the creation process, in its 3 stages as they exist in ALL forms of life and in all phenomenon of the universe: creation, preservation and destruction. one pulsating, vibrating, self-existing, self-aware field?? which includes all of us and all tings, but only appears to be as separate individuals and separate occurrences?
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Of course that would be a refreshing change from the monarchial boss that is separate from his creation.
Since there are no separate occurrences from the whole organism, why not start there? Even the Big Bang illustrates this point.
One of the issues I face is that through science we’ve accepted a theory as a random occurrence, then pretend life has meaning, drawing out political swords and dividing asunder, yet simultaneously hold the idea that nothing has meaning. Which is it people?
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science only deals with the visible, material world. for that reason, it can never get to the truth. life is much more than what we see with our eyes or through a microscope, or the deductions we make through a questionable understanding.
life has its source in the invisible. when you plant a seed, the tree that grows out of it is not visible in the seed. yet the potential is all there.
so… never mind science, lol!
imagine you are all-pure-consciousness, god-consciousness, like an all-potential field of infinite potentiality and any thought or desire you have, will manifest.
now, will the question of ‘meaning’ ever come up? meaning is simply in being. no higher purpose.
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In reply to both you, Monica, and Jim, I can say purpose is what I make it to be, no one else. Not some non-existent superbeing, not some stuck-in-materialism science. I have meaning, I have purpose. What you have is up to you. No one but you.
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there is cute saying in zen “I have no interest in immortality, only in the taste of tea”. which basically means, don’t spend time on concepts, pay attention to what’s in front of you. that is where it’s at. 😊
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What is in front of me, Monica, are my concepts. Tea is but one of them.
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Yes, the bible has lots of difficulties- to me they’re part of the evil God creates.
‘I the LORD search the heart and try the reins and give everyone their just deserts.’
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Justice dispenses justice through deception. Makes perfect sense.
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Difficult, for sure. If I believe God, I’m going to 100% believe him. I’m in.
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Believe him, or in him? All you have at your disposal is opinion. A mess of hormones and perceptions fed to you since your youth. The interesting part is how powerful these are. Everyone sees what they are conditioned to see based on their culture. How does that fit in?
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I believe him in the same way you believe yourself. Yes, it is my opinion.
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What level of expertise do you possess to abandon your moral authority to follow the dogma of the experts who have authored this mess we have today?
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I live in the open to God 24 hrs a day. When a nasty thought comes in, I own it- look him square in the eye. I believe he put his spirit in me- made in his image.
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True you are the image of god, but not in the christian/Jewish sense. I think that’s all for now, but good luck. One thing about Christianity, the search never ends and the results are short of glorious.
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Thanks for chat Jim.
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I think evil of certain types is evidence against God.
But I also think when we talk about culpability causation is not always sufficient. Yes Hitler’s Parents could be said to have caused the holocaust by having baby Hitler. That is “but for” them having Hitler the holocaust would not have happened. But that does not mean they are culpable for the holocaust.
No you can say well they didn’t know what would happen and God did. Ok that is a fair point. But again knowing someone will do something evil does not mean you are responsible for their evil.
In the end we are going to come to arguments about trade offs. For example whether it is better if we remain ignorant of evil or whether it is better that we gain knowledge even if that knowledge causes suffering etc.
https://trueandreasonable.co/2019/05/01/problem-of-evil-answered-with-logic-and-scripture/
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To solving the problem of evil, I like the Hindu version that nothing exists that is not god—we are simply apertures of a cosmic organism. All of this drama is done to itself and their are no victims here. Our apparent isolation makes it feel like we are out of place, but that is the illusion that makes the game possible. That makes Hitler as natural a phenomenon as an earthquake. Like the left hand of god, it’s too embarrassing to admit god has a bad side, but everything contains its opposites.
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Good
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