Faith is the mental effort to believe. According to research, during a typical day, a person uses about 320 calories just to think. Different mental states and tasks can subtly affect the way the brain consumes energy. Applying effort to the belief in things you don’t know, raises additional strain on cerebral energy consumption. Is this not works? Is not this something you do?
Additionally, the mental wrangling required to believe in deities is indeed effort. To outsmart the contradictions of the Hebrew religion also induces stress and issues of self worth, further adding to “works”.
Faith in Jesus is works. Contradictions 9:17 Apologetics is even further efforts that contradict the biblical promise.
Grace and faith are ideas in opposition that require caloric effort. The only way to evade that is faith like an atheist—total trust in letting go. Only then can grace be achieved through unbelief—through no effort whatsoever.
TheCommonAtheist 
Grace Jones?
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In your case,probably Highway to Hell!
😉
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Are you calling me the devil?
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Hell, no! Well .. maybe just a little devil
😈
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Or amazing Grace?
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Or Faith Hill?
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So, atheism could be said to be a religious ‘diet’ ?
No wonder I have no weight issues.
😇
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Religious abstinence in this case is appropriate too…
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Very Buddha of you!
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Why thank you John. I’m not sure exactly why this is Buddhic but I’ll take it.
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Find by not seeking.
Of course, there is a problem with this, which is: if the goal of the living is to have no desires then how can anyone desire Nirvana without desiring it?
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By accepting that nothing at all is in error and life is a singularity?
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If that works for you, sure.
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Yes, the Christian life is exhausting because there are so many standards. And so faith is to be always entirely on Christ: ‘Come unto me, and rest.’
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Sorry Arnold. I guess as long as you believe that you deserve it. How can Grace be free but require a exhaustive works, which mental work is actually a caloric output of effort?
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I don’t live the Christian life Jim, ‘Christ lives in me and I live by faith in him’ (Gal2.20).
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So you won’t be saved by grace, but by faith? Then there is no grace.
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See how confusing that is?
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It isn’t confusing at all. It’s quite obvious unless you want to water down the definitions.
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Yes, definitions can be watered down. And if Christ is God he’s absolute.
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An absolute being wouldn’t be contradictory to basic logic. It’s not complicated at all til you believe
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Yes, belief complicates stuff until its centered on the Absolute. God knows we’re dust- that’s what he chooses to work with.
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We’ve already been through this. If you want to be technical about it, dust is only a metaphor for form. There is no actual dust. That would make god deceptive. That is immoral
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Well Jim, thanks for your time and ear.
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Have a great day!
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My brain needs “no effort,” since it may be limited enough! 😉
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I know better than that Mr Peace! Whatever the case, reality is generally the exact opposite of what is taught in modern religion.
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Creating and sustaining the supernatural realm of heaven is a mentally intensive delusion. GROG
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I can get religion and lose weight? I’ll stick to eating right and getting enough exercise, thank you.
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You must have been a Calvinist. If so, that explains everything about you. I’m a Christian, not a Calvinist. Faith is not works. Works is obedience to the law of Moses. Grace is a gift if you believe. Works is earning your way to eternal life, aka self righteousness, thru the law of Moses. Christians are not working. Eternal life is a gift…if you believe. The law of Moses was a set up for fail. Romans 5:20. Both Calvinism, and Catholicism create atheists. But then again, they all have “original sin” as their doctrines. Abraham didn’t work for eternal life, but he proved his belief by what he did.
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Believing takes effort. That is works. Grace can only be Grace if given without any strings attached.
No I am not a Calvinist. Just observant
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Believing takes effort? That’s a new one on me. If I were to tell you that I have $500 to give you, no strings attached, if you believed that, you would put out your hand for the money. But that takes effort, huh? Lifting your arm takes effort? How do you drink beer? LOL.
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. The mental wrangling required to believe the Christian story consumes additional caloric energy. It is indeed effort to believe and then trust your contradictory laden mythology. After you’ve spent considerable time and energy to make sense of it all (so you can rest assured you’re not crazy or silly) is indeed effort. Your additional cerebral energy consumption is accelerated by such mental states. Grace would not require such continuous effort.
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Your logic is foreign to me. I’m sure that you’ve studied other things that took effort on your part, because that effort paid off in the end. If you consider that to be work, you still get a wage for work. You earned it. Some things do take effort…if ya want it bad enough. But Christianity is easier than atheists think. We don’t jump thru hoops. Jews do. They are under the law of Moses. Christians are not. So we do eat shell fish and bacon. We don’t stone anyone. Generally, a lot of atheists get stoned tho. You do have a sense of humor, tho.
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If your belief is calorie free, why does challenging that belief heighten caloric response and trigger defense mechanisms? It’s only belief, right?
My logic may seem foreign to you because it is nearly impossible to believe and be objective about that belief. Unbelief is a clean slate to see things as they are—not what you hope them to be.
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Have you ever read the writing on a passenger side view mirror? Things are not always what they seem to be.
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I am acutely aware that nothing is what it seems.
If god created this out of nothing, why is there still nothing. There is only forms of energy with no physical stuff at the center of it. A particle is defined as “an excitation of a field” and evolution teaches us most of reality is hidden from our senses. True there are no deities, but is there nothing at all? What you are made of? You are the apparition pretending you’re real. Or god has used deception to test his little sims.
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The one thing that always stumps atheists, but yet, they think science has already answered, is your mind. There is a little voice inside your head, that no one can hear, but you. You can speak, without vocal cords, without moving your lips. You can have a conversation with yourself, and no one knows what you are thinking. That mind is called your soul. Soul comes from the Greek word, Psucke, transliterated to Latin is psyche.
However, you are a spirit, first and foremost, the invisible part of you, the real you. The body that you are clothed in, that is just dirt. When you die, your spirit/soul depart, and the body is left.
No one can see the spirit/soul, until your spirit and soul departs your body. Science will never see those things. Science only sees the body. Your mind is not your brain. But your soul is stored in your brain. Your spirit is a separate intellect. Your spirit came first. God created you long before you were conceived in the womb. But you were formed of the dirt in the womb. Life begins when both spirit and body are joined together. Likewise, when you die, your spirit/soul depart, and all you are left with is a corps.
Things are not always as they appear. But science can only go by what they can see. You can’t see ghosts…unless God allows that to happen.
People from all walks of life/religions have had near death experiences, and no matter what religion it is, the experiences are very close to being the same. Even atheists have had them, and change their minds regarding an afterlife. And it ain’t the drugs given in a hospital, or some kind of fake story, or feel good endorphins due to dying. Listen to some testimonies.
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I am not denying there is more going on than meets the eye. Science hasn’t declared any victories regarding the mind. In fact those at the top are concerned that no mechanism for consciousness has been discovered. The next wave of physicists may be on to something more viable.
I am not “a” spirit or a little blurb of consciousness, but my brain is what connects me to it. When I die nothing goes anywhere, but my receiver is turned off.
Everything you see and experience is seen inside your brain, and you are seeing what you are inside of. I am but an aperture of the whole, looking at myself.
You say we’re made of dirt, but dirt isn’t made of any thing. This is the illusion.
“Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real. If quantum mechanics hasn’t profoundly shocked you, you haven’t understood it yet.” —Niels Bohr
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Well, you are in for a huge surprise when you die. I knew an atheist in jail, and he told me that he died while high on meth and heroin…he knew he died. And it was more than once within a short span of time…he kept dying, and coming back. Finally, he came back. But he still remained an atheist. I thought that was weird. He knows that there is something beyond this life…but still doesn’t acknowledge a God.
Nikki Six, of Motley crew…he has a story to tell as well. He doesn’t speak of it much, because of people like you who would discount it. But it is worth listening to.
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He knows that there is something beyond this life…but still doesn’t acknowledge a God.
Because it isn’t one. There is no such thing except in the minds of those who choose to believe.
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And you know this because…..? Some atheist told you? Riddle me the mind, before you conclude…a voice that speaks, and no one can hear it but you. You have no answer to that, but can conclude things that are far beyond your comprehension?
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Now with the word god there is nothing to which it refers, so each man can create his own image of that for which there is no reference. The theologian does it in one way, the intellectual in another, and the believer and the non-believer in their own different ways. Hope generates this belief, and then seeking. This hope is the outcome of despair – the despair of all we see around us in the world. From despair hope is born, they also are two sides of the same coin. When there is no hope there is hell, and this fear of hell gives us the vitality of hope. Then illusion begins. So the word has led us to illusion and not to god at all. God is the illusion which we worship; and the non-believer creates the illusion of another god which he worships – the State, or some utopia, or some book which he thinks contains all truth. So we are asking you whether you can be free of the word with its illusion.
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If you are at a bus stop, you “hope” that the bus arrives. Hope, defined, is “anticipation”, or, waiting.
Faith is knowing that you are going to get what you are waiting for.
You know that the bus will arrive (Faith), and you are just waiting for it to arrive (hope), because you give credence to the bus schedule.
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And you’re giving credence to a biblical schedule so full of failed prophecy…but belief eagerly dismisses that.
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I don’t discount anyones stories. I don’t think you know me very well.
The real connections christianity has with the truth are those things in common with mysticism which it forbids, and eastern religions. Even the book of John makes it clear that Jesus didn’t find his status peculiar to himself. He is not the only son of god. That is a political and cultural move.
I acknowledge god, but it isn’t what you think it is. Follow the path of least contradiction. There is only one right answer.
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Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Let me give you an example…God gave a promise to Abraham regarding an inheritance. That inheritance would be two things. Land, and seed.
That land was a small piece of real estate in the middle east, and that land would belong to Abraham’s seed thru Isaac.
Spiritually interpreted, that “inheritance” is eternal life thru Jesus. The story of Abraham is a carnal story of a spiritual reality.
Most of Genesis is written in such a manner. You can’t just read the book and figure it out without a spiritual interpretation. Jonah, a prophet…3 days and 3 nights. It’s about Jesus, not really about Jonah.
Jesus as “son of God”:
Jesus is God. You mention the book of John, so John 4:24 states that God is a spirit. Well, if God is a spirit, so are we. Jesus, the son, is the BODY of God. God, the father is the spirit of Jesus. And the Holy Spirit is “the mind of Christ (Soul). ONE PERSON, not 3 people.
There is no contradictions. But the atheists are experts at pointing out what they think are contradictions. The bible was written in such a way to confuse, or confound, the wise.
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
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I would be very curious to know what YOU believe. So far you’ve quoted a lot of writings that shows me you spent a lot of time investigating what someone else believed. This is the burden of belief.
I spent nearly fifty years regurgitating this and sided with the church on some pretty embarrassing topics. The day I stopped believing that all went away. You’ve been judging me and threw in some mild threats to scare me into thinking like you—but only a believer would do that.
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Well, the only answer that I can give, is that whatever denomination that you were in, it was a bad church. There are many bad church’s out there.
The bad church’s began with Catholicism. They have some terrible doctrines. Then, Luther became angry at the Catholics, so he defected…for good reason. But he still had Catholic baggage. And because John Calvin didn’t like being Catholic either, he made his own strange belief system.
So, when I began studying the bible, I sought to debunk a lot of their doctrines, based on the Bible. And I have found that Christianity is easier than those idiots preached.
Now, I’m not an atheist, and I believe in eternal life, and I believe in Jesus, however, I don’t believe in their “church fathers” conclusions on many things. Now, for many, just that alone would turn anyone to be an atheist. I’ve seen that in the last 15 years, especially those coming out of Calvinism, and including those coming out of Catholicism.
The Jews are telling a story of God, but is anyone listening?
My former roommate is an atheist, and we used to have fun bantering, and I once asked him, “What if you are wrong”, and he said what he would tell God, “Oops, my bad!”.
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What if I’m wrong? How would I know? How would you?
I have a certain set of neurons and experiences. If god gave me that I’m sure it would be fine with that.
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You’ve got time, you aren’t dead yet. Being your age, I’d set some time, and just read the bible as a Harry Potter novel a few times.
After that, invest in a lot of coffee, college ruled paper, hi-liters and pens, and study what your church taught, and try to use the bible to debunk what they taught.
My journey in doing that was first with the Jehovah’s Witnesses…not to be one, but just to prove them wrong. I did the same with the 7th Day Adventists, too.
Then, I was just beginning to study Calvinism, and that is when Calvinism was really gaining support by some serious whack jobs, but there was a lot of spiritual abuse blogs coming out based on how they were treated in those Calvinist Church’s, and Calvinist church’s have a Baptist background, too.
It took a lot of time, but that time was well spent, in seeing their errors of doctrines. I don’t believe in Original Sin, which is a prerequisite to Calvinism, and Aminianism. I’m just a non-denomination guy, not beholden to any “We Believe Statements, or corporate creeds. I make my own decisions. But I had to study to come to those conclusions.
We have the Jews, from which Christianity came from. We are the Gentiles for whom the bible speaks about. We have Israel. We have Muslims. All of which is discussed in the Bible. The Jews are hated. Christians are hated. Both are hated so much so, there must be a reason…and that reason? Jesus. People hate Jesus. If Christians and Jews are hated that much, there must be some truth to it, as to why people are offended by both.
Can you think of any other religion that people hates that much? Jews and Christians?
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It isn’t because of Jesus that your religion is hated. It is because you all think your superior to religions you know nothing about—and want to convert them to an inferior ideology. At first it was by force, now that’s illegal so you use fear and wordsmithing the truth to such an intellectual level the simplicity is gone, if it was ever there. Just defining god is a conundrum from the start. Now he is so complex he is unknowable, un discoverable, and irrelevant. The atonement cures no one. My buddy Rich says jesus cured him of his alcoholism —yet he still attends meetings and his one true desire is more alcohol. Funny he can’t see that it’s all him. But some people need to believe because they are weak, but really they hold all the power.
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So, when I began studying the bible, I sought to debunk a lot of their doctrines
But, don’t you see? You “knew” what was there all along, but because you failed to recognize it, you had to go to an outside source.
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No, I didn’t know, and that is my whole point. I had to study to find out. I studied BOTH their doctrines, and the bible. At the same time. But I had to first read the bible, so that I can say, “I’ve read that somewhere before…where did I read that?” So, I’d have to re-read again…and before you know it, it was second nature to easily find things, even to the point of memorizing the particular book, chapter, verse.
It’s no different than studying a text book at school for an exam. It takes HOMEWORK, and time. And lots of coffee.
It’s like this:
Preacher A said this: ___________________________
But the Bible states this: ____________________________
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I’ve read the Bible more times than I can count. After the fog lifted it was perfectly clear—it is read with preconceptions while the believer ignores the uncomfortable parts—whistling past the graveyard, so to speak.
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“ Jesus, the son, is the BODY of God. God, the father is the spirit of Jesus.”
If got the father is the spirit of Jesus than god the father is also your spirit. If Jesus is the body of god, than you are also the body of god. The idea that you are separate from that is a social construct—the ego. It is philosophically, scientifically, and religiously incorrect.
If did created you it came from him. Unless you think god has a bunch of spirit test tubes made of something foreign to himself, which would be impossible.
This was actually the good news. And Jesus wanted you to realize that not only was he a son of God but that you are too. His situation was not peculiar to himself, he thought it was a method that could be taught, that you could be one as he is one.
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1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
It’s obvious you don’t what what a spirit even is. In short, it’s a ghost. Genesis 1 is about creation of spirits of man. Genesis 2 is about formation of a dying body. And the order of events is different between the 2 chapters. That shows that you were planted in dirt. The you is your spirit.
Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Study each word from 1 Thessalonians 5:23: spirit, soul, body.
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Obviously you can quote the words of others interpretations of what they think these things are, but I want to know what you think these things are? Everything to do with monotheism is it odds with the ultimate reality of the way things actually are. How could you possibly be separate from an omnipotence, a singularity? Not even the big bang could afford you this separation that you demand.
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I’m only quoting the Bible. But I’ve studied all this stuff. You are a spirit. Dressed in a body. And you have a soul. It’s so easy to understand. I don’t know why you have a problem with that.
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You only feel that way due to cultural and religious underpinnings. Ie; it’s what you were taught to feel. It isn’t real. It is strictly a Judeo Christian belief that has made it a crime to know this. Utter blasphemy! It is a way to control you. Period.
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What kind of human are you? You sound pretty shallow. Contrary to popular belief I’m not controlled by Christianity. I’m a firm believer, on my own accord. I believe in an afterlife, just like most religions do. I believe that you still exist after you die. The body we have now dies, but the next body will be immortal making us eternal. Life requires a body. But existence is not dependent on a body. Hence, Casper, the friendly GHOST.
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You wrote: I’m not controlled by Christianity … then go on to talk about your “beliefs” which are part and parcel of the Christian faith. So yes, you ARE controlled by Christianity. If you weren’t, would you be at all concerned about that “afterlife” you mentioned?
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I don’t see the connection you infer. In other words, I’m not controlled by something I believe in. For example, if your employment is your passion, then you don’t consider your employment as work.
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Work is not a belief. Your belief has produced myopia. There is much more to life than Christian belief, which is simply someone else’s idea that you’ve grown accustomed to.
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No they’re isn’t much more to life than Christian belief. This life is a vapor of time. Eternity is much longer. Getting an i-phone with unlimited everything, and getting laid, is not that important.
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…Says someone who knows one little cube of religious belief. The key to the mystery is unbelief. Lift off the veil of belief. Your religion lives in a self contradictory state of reality. So much so you can’t even imagine how someone can’t believe what you believe. Astonishing!
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And without getting laid you would have no experience whatsoever. The whole game depends on getting it. Without it you wouldn’t be having this conversation
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Oh, so atheists get laid for that purpose?
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Getting laid is not unique to humans, it’s common and all animals. It may seem like a very complex on special thing but it’s very common. Atheist do it for the same reason Christians do it. Period. it’s all a part of nature. It’s funny, Christianity is nothing but a big family planning regulation society, but even the most pious believers that don’t believe in premarital relations, have premarital relations. It can’t be stopped. That is nature and you may as well regulate tsunamis.
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There is a spiritual story about marriage. The word, ONE. RELATIONSHIPS. Emotional connection. Love. It’s easy to satisfy the flesh. But it takes work to satisfy the soul. Lust can’t do that.
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So how many people are satisfied with their physical lives vs their spiritual lives. It takes the same amount of work to satisfy both. They are inseparable. You’ve teetered pretty far to one side of only one meager helping. It isn’t filling or you wouldn’t be here.
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Well, I’m not satisfied with my physical life. I’m almost 60, and I’m beginning to feel the age with weak knees, and hips, and the loss of a few teeth. I figure I’ve got maybe what, 20 years on this earth. Yes, things on this earth take work. But one satisfies the soul, the other doesn’t.
As far as why I’m here, I instigate. Seriously, I saw your blog, and was curious as to your mindset. What makes an atheist? Were you once a Christian and something happened?
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Without a body there is no mechanism of perception. Your next body will die as well am be as impermanent as all illusions.
I am shallow? You are not controlled by Christianity, but are by the Bible narrative —so you are Catholic whether you like it or not. Life requires nothing and is what is. It is the Tao.
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2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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Here you go again. These are not your thoughts, but that of a hijacked mind.
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What’s your problem dude? Serious.
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I don’t have any problems. Not sure what’s wrong here. If you were to spend two or three months alone, no media, no books, no outside influence, then you could see how badly you have been manipulated. I’ve done it twice and it made me a better person play a long shot.
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Manipulated? You sound as tho life hasn’t treated you well. That’s why I ask. As if you have a really bad chip on your shoulder. In other words, you sound like a person with low self worth, and self esteem, and that you are trying to make up for it by denying religion, propping you up in that manner, so that your life has some kind of meaningless meaning.
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It’s actually the opposite. You have immersed yourself looking for meaning. Shows a lack of esteem and confidence. Not the other way around.
This is typical Christian banter. You know nothing outside the bubble of your faith yet start criticizing the person and name calling BECAUSE of belief. It is not your ally.
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I’ve already found meaning. It’s called reading the book of Ecclesiastes. It’s all vanity. I’m sure you’ve seen the movie, “The Devils Advocate”? The Devils favorite sin is…vanity. lol. I’m not name calling. I’m just curious as to why you are an atheist. What is the GENESIS, pun intended.
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I was a Christian, born and raised, survived the charade til I was 50. I spent some time homesteading in the Panama jungle and had a profound experience. Like a switch flip I was free of belief and free of the divisive thoughts and judgements. None of those beliefs were me. Every little bit was parroted from some doctrine or scriptural justification. So when I ask what you believe, I know you can’t answer that in your own words—your own thoughts. That takes a clean slate. Atheism provided that.
Virtually everything you know is only true because you have nothing to compare it to. There are many more plausible and useful ways to think—and connecting the dots isn’t hard at all without belief. It’s all right out in the open for everyone to see, but the tent of belief keeps it hidden.
Christianity is a very useful tool to the politicos and to evolution. It does have its successes because belief keeps reality hidden which is good for reproduction.
Why do you suppose belief is so necessary? Because it isn’t real. If it was real you wouldn’t have to believe in it.
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Thank you for your explanation. However, for me, christianity is based on Judaism. The country of Israel exists. Jews exist. The temple mount exists. Muslims exist. Both claim Abraham. Egypt exists. Pharaoh’s existed. The Nile river exists. Rome existed. Babylon existed. And the Bible is unlike a normal book. Most of genesis is telling a story of Jesus and heaven, not Abraham, nor Noah, etc. God used the lives of people to tell a story of himself. Such as king David, king Solomon, etc. Even Jonah. And prophesies, and that God will scatter the Jews throughout the world, kicking them out of Israel, but that they will return. They are still in that process now. There are so many reasons for me to believe. None of which are the reasons that you imputed to me.
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Justification for one’s beliefs can be validated via many different ways. Christians use ONE primary source that contains stories that were circulated among tribes that existed thousands and thousands of years ago. And somehow, they believe all of it has a bearing on the world of today.
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And the belief that these things are valid has us stuck in a violent and divisive past.
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You are correct. That’s because it does have a bearing today. Iran wants to destroy Israel. Jews and Christians are indeed hated, just as the Bible predicted. But I must stress, too the max, that the Bible is not not not your normal book, not not not your normal religious book, either. If you think that the life of Abraham was about Abraham, then you are missing the main trust of the book. King David…a reflection of God. King Solomon, a reflection of God. Joseph, a reflection of God, Noah, a reflection of God. Jonah, a reflection of God. Moses, a reflection of God. It begins with the tree of life in the garden, in paradise… and ends with the tree of life… Jesus… in paradise. The Bible is the only book that uses people like that to tell a story about himself. Noah’s Ark… it’s about the rapture. End times stuff. There is two references in Ecclesiastes that discusses the things that has been will be, and in other places, that God wrote the end from the beginning. If you want to know how the story ends… just read genesis.
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This is a great example of continued failed prophecy. The Jews have not owned Israel or the temple mount for the greater of their existence, and have less actual claim to the land in any other ethnic group in the region. The fact of the United States established Israel again in 1957, doesn’t show God doing anything, but shows do gooders trying to interfere with natural processes to a people that don’t actually deserve the land and have never owned it.
You have to believe a lot of hogwash to justify Israel’s ownership of Israel in anyway. I imagine if I came and took your house because God told me to do it, I think you’d be, I would be hated by your children and so on and so on, because they weren’t entitled to it and nobody told them they could have it. And the fact that they don’t have it shows the promise and the prophecy to be complete malarkey.
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Their deed to the land is the covenant of circumcision. And the borders that God have Abraham has never come to fruition yet. But I believe it will be… in the future. Again, the Bible prophesied that God was going to kick them out of the country…scattering. but that he will gather them. Jews are all over the world. They still exist. It is their land based on circumcision. It doesn’t belong to nomads, aka Palestinians. The temple mount still exists. Prophesy isn’t finished yet.
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How many battles, how many dead people will satisfy you that this is not the way any righteous being would operate? Now you have America propping up Israel thinking they can do gods work for him, and the fact is no such covenant of circumcision means a damn thing.
It has failed as miserably as atonement doctrine. That last comment is the epitome of the ridiculousness of belief.
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You think exactly like an atheist. Wars happen, people die in wars. Life is a deadly disease. If you live, you will die. No one gets out of here alive. So, atheists think that when you die, end of story. Religious people believe differently. You don’t have to be Christian to believe in an afterlife. But you don’t. The issue, however, isn’t that Israel will be killing people, more than it will be that Israel’s enemies will be fighting them, to put an end to their existence. And I know that you know the verse that states LET THE NAME OF ISRAEL BE NO MORE REMEMBERED…or something like that. Iran seeks the destruction of Israel. But you blame Christians for supporting a country that their neighbors want them destroyed? 🤔
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Israels enemies will fight them because Israel was and is the initial thief and offender.
I didn’t say when I die , end of story. There is no afterlife but only life. How could you ever not be? Life is cycles. When your body dies “you” won’t go anywhere because “you” have no where to go.
People hate Israel because they are historically arrogant and murderous. Some hate Christianity because they are arrogant and have destroyed most of the variety and beauty of people everywhere they planted their flag.
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You are flat out wrong. In all regards. You sound like a Buddhist now.
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The use a force by Christianity is very well documented, beginning with Augustine’s approval and lasting for 1800 years. The conquistadors butchered millions of people in the name of Jesus. One, but not all, very striking firsthand account by Bartolo de las Casas from 1504, and how they would burn 13 at a time on a gibbet in honor of Christ and the apostles. They slaughtered mothers by cutting off their lactating breasts and bashed their children to death, massacred superior civilizations that did not even know how to fight until they encountered the Christians. Look it up for yourself. Every single place Christianity planted its flag it was nothing but oppression and bloodshed. This all by a people supposed with the light of Christ l, but hey, like father like son.
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I feel sorry for you.
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You faith has you making up room for your beliefs to make an ounce of sense. I like the way you’re rewriting history to suit you ill conceptions.
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Hitler murders millions of Jews, but you say Israel are murderers. And if you think Christians are arrogant… just wait till you meet your maker. It’s prophesied that people like you will be cursing God with vile names… in your afterlife.
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I’m, Hitler was a Christian and his works were endorsed by countless clergy.
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And if we just go thru life cycles, then why are you so worried about who kills who?
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I’m not worried about it. Just pointing out the hypocrisy. Christianity and Islam are bedfellows and through belief you can’t see it.
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So you are a Jew hater!
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Not at all a Jew hater. I understand pretty well the effects of belief and it it totally necessary for them to do whatever they do. You think you can outsmart your neurology and experiences but I know that’s not possible.
Stop with the feeble accusations. I hold no malice for anyone being what they can’t help but be.
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You falsely accused the Jews of being murderers…I call that a Jew hater.
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How many people in the Old Testament did the Jews attack in the name of God? They were commanded to kill everything! This is from your book not mine.
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That’s not murder.
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You are making excuses for bad behavior. The amount of mental wrangling you have is astonishing. Would you tolerate such behavior from someone else is god?
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They don’t exist. The only God that exists is my own. And yes, you think that’s arrogant. I don’t care if I’m arrogant in that regard.
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Everyone thinks it’s arrogant but a believer. Your belief has shrouded the truth from your eyes. He’s very arrogant and narrow minded, not to mention the sheer contradiction of monotheism and individual souls
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All the things I wasted my time explaining this morning, sincerely, too. I’m done with you, cuz you just start badmouthing my belief no matter what I say. Tolerant much?
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So you’re going to just ignore the fact that Christianity has a love affair with bloodshed? Historically your people have been atrocious, and that is the outcome of belief. True fact
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No, we love the blood of Christ. By the way, in not Catholic. That’s their side of the block that did that. O don’t claim them.
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You don’t have to claim them, but it is your heritage. Reformation of a bad ideology has taken us nowhere. For 2000 years the carrot still tangles and no objectives have been met, no prophecies fulfilled, and happiness consists in promises. It’s quite a scam.
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Not my heritage at all. I don’t claim Luther or Calvin or pelagian or any reform doctrines. I don’t belive in original sin, I don’t believe in preveniant grace or irresistible grace. I reject church discipline. I reject that a divorced person can’t marry again. I reject a lot of orthodox doctrines. Just look at my blog for Christ sake. You should have seen all that already. And I explain why.
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The fact that YOU don’t “claim” certain ideas/beliefs about your faith does not make it any more or less authentic. It’s just that YOU have found stuff that makes the most sense to YOU.
In the big picture, NONE of it matters.
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Um, he does believe in human sacrifice and genital mutilation. His tribe comes from a band of people that killed animals to appease the gods, and cut off part of their weeners to form a covenant. That’s actually a little too far out, man.
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Wellll … yes. That is something that needs to be considered (!!!). Ick. *GAG*
But when push comes to shove, whatever the individual believes (or does), as Ecclesiastes said, it’s all vanity and striving after the wind.
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LOL. You’ll find out. If I were you, I would take what I said all day long today, and based on the bible, PROVE ME WRONG. But you have to STUDY, not just read. I know, I know, you will refuse, cuz you can’t get past the THEE, and THOU stuff. But I challenge you to prove me wrong, just based on the Bible. Look at my blog. First, find out what those Reform folks believe, all four. Luther, Calvin, Armenian, and Pelagian. Ya gotta include the Catholics as they all claim “CHURCH FATHERS”, whereas I could care less about any church father. They wore dresses and dunce caps, and wave smoke filled canisters back and forth, and give you a cookie and grape juice calling that Jesus. But, YES, it all matters. I’ve taken my time today to lay out why I believe what I believe, very sincerely, and if you haven’t noticed, WHO besides me, has every explained it in that manner? Do reform folks? Do Catholics? No, they don’t. They are too busy concentrating on THOU SHALT NOT stuff, and they love “EXPOSITORY” preaching…aka Line By Line, precept by precept, and they don’t understand the spiritual stuff. I’ll give another example…KING SAUL, the first king of Israel. He is a TYPE, or REPRESENTATION of the coming Anti-Christ, who, by the way, MUST BE JEWISH, and walk into a temple, proclaiming to be God. The Jews rejected Jesus, but they will believe this guy. Why? Because the Jews are also awaiting for their “messiah” to SET UP THE EARTHLY KINGDOM, as some thought that Jesus was going to do. That is a main reason that the Jews rejected Jesus, because he never set up the earthly kingdom as prophesy stated. But the Anti-Christ will. And King Saul is a man that was USED by God to tell a story about the Anti-Christ. He was a King that the people chose, long before a kingdom split, but David was a King that God chose. This Bible is NOT like any book you find in any religious library in any other religion. You have to see it in the spiritual, and the carnal, at the same time. It ALL matters.
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I thought you would be interested in hearing an outsiders view on how others view your religion. You’ve spent years of your life trying to wrangle some ideas together so it would make sense. It certainly doesn’t make sense to anybody that doesn’t believe at first before reading the fine print
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You don’t think I knew already? I usually debate Christians, as a Christian… but I have fun with you whack jobs as well.
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I don’t understand your thought process regarding monotheism that you think contradics individual souls. One God created all souls. But you don’t believe anyone created you.
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Yes. I’m closed minded, too.
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And… If you think that sound like a Buddhist, it shows me how very shallow your knowledge base is. Nothing to do with Buddhism whatsoever. Not even similar, not even the close, not even in the same ballpark. Not knowing anything about other religions certainly makes yours true though.
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Dude, they go thru life cycles. How can you say that I’m not even close? I am close. They think that a cow is a former human.
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That is a very narrow view of the cycles of life. Life comes and goes, will be wiped out a life or find a way to do it again
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Reincarnation. That’s Buddhism.
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Reincarnation is simply a tool to placate the weak minded, and the insecure. I’m talking about life that emerges after the extinction events. It’s been going on long long long before Jehovah came on the scene
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Uh huh. Lol
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Reincarnation does have much more evidence in favor of it, then Christianity does of its dogma.
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Sure, just listen to squirly Shirly Maclean… sister of Warren Beaty.
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Well, their beliefs are as valid as your beliefs. There are however a plethora of children that have documented past lives and some of them are very compelling and detailed
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And you believe that documentation? Based on what? FAITH?
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Not really. Everything is electrical impulses including data and all of that data recycles. People think they are someone from the past but what is being reincarnated? Data. It isn’t genetics, it is a race or color, it’s just data.
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Oh, now you are a scientist, huh? Interesting. Maybe you and L Ron Hubbard can get together…if you can find him. He may be a chicken, or a turtle now.
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You have nothing to offer but insults, which means you’re losing
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I offered a lot more than insults earlier in the day, and you just scoff at them, so who is insulting who here?
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Just because you endorse human and animal sacrifice and genital mutilation I find you repulsive. An adult who wants to mutilate or change their body is fine—you do it to children. And that shows your lack of faith and trust in free agency.
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What? I “endorse” it? How do I “endorse” it? Since you are CUT, as a baby, why? Why was the decision made to give you a circumcision? Do you hate your parents that made that decision for you? Or are you grateful for it?
You scoff at sacrifices. As a Christian, we don’t do sacrifices. That was a Jewish thing…and OTHER RELIGIONS throughout the world did and still does it. Ever heard of those long lost tribes in the Amazon?
Jews were not the only ones who sacrificed animals.
I guess you fit right in with the Buddhists, cuz they will never sacrifice an animal. That cow just might be UNCLE CHARLIE.
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Your problem is all that study without practical experience. You only know the words
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I guess you’ve never jerked off a day in your life, huh? I have practical experience in that department. So, yes, I can speak of the lower skin covering the sensitive part. It’s no different than NOT being cut. Practical experience. LOL. Funny dude.
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I’m not that preoccupied with sex. You seem to be not getting any. Circumcision isn’t why Hebrew religions over breed. It is because you all think it’s a sin, that you can’t get it off your mind.
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Ohhhhh…so that’s your problem. You don’t want to ACKNOWLEDGE sin. You did, at one time, OBEY YOUR PARENTS, right? What’s the freaking difference? If you got out of line, they punished you. What’s the freaking difference? Your parents did punish you for doing wrong…did they not? Or are you one of those who got, “TIME OUT’S”? LOL.
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They punished me over tradition and cultural expectations. Not sin.
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Who said it’s not a sin? YOU? LOL.
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No immutable attribute of oneself can be a sin. I was punished for being me.
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I don’t know L Ron Hubbard other than battlefield earth.
You seem to know a lot of useless things, like your other beliefs that don’t actually mean anything.
Yes I follow some science and no religious doctrine has ever supplanted a scientific discovery. It has worked the other way around though.
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You are in your 60’s and you have no idea who L Ron Hubbard is? Come on, dude. He was a science fiction author for many years, before he founded SCIENTOLOGY, the religion for the RICH Hollywood actors.
He wrote a book once called Dianetics. It was advertised on TV for a few years back in the mid 80’s. But he died at 74 on January 24, 1986.
I’m very surprised you’ve never heard of the guy.
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He died in 74? I was 11
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11? I thought you were older than that. I’d already been in the Navy for 3 years when you were 11. You are just a youngster.
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You can tell someone from the navy but you can’t tell them much.
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You must be a liberal, as well. Liberals don’t like the military folks very much. I joined under Ronald Reagan’s first term, and ended under GW Bush’s first term.
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I am A political. I don’t do politics. Both sides are equally wrong.
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I can think of another “a” word. But I’ll be nice. I’ll just be arrogant.
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Your beliefs make you believe political and religious things no true human would believe.
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OK, dude, I’m done. It was fun being arrogant with you, but you’ve got some whacky ideas about everything in life. So, I’m out-a-here. I’d suggest you see a psychiatrist. Sounds like you’ve got some mental health issues.
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Go sacrifice you littles and spank your half skin. Weirdo
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How can you not believe in a CREATOR, that created you? What is your ORIGIN?
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I was never created. How could any thing real ever not be?
First you would have to prove to me there was ever nothing. Even before the big bang.
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Wow…in my religion, only God is from EVERLASTING to Everlasting. The rest of what you see was created. You know that. You used to be one of us. What made you flip out and follow cults? Cuz a fellow Christian was “arrogant”? LOL.
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No, because LOL it never achieved any premise or fulfilled any prophecy. You know that already or you wouldn’t have done such an extensive study. Human sacrifice and genital mutilation by any standard—you’re the one that’s flipped out.
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Ohhhhhh….so you are against the LBGTQ+ community for mutilating their bodies! LOL. Well, that is good to know! LOL.
I take it that you are not cut? So sad. The sensitivity is amazing without that lump of skin. Why do you think the Jews kept multiplying faster than other races of peoples?
And the prophesies fulfilled is all over the place. I don’t understand your denial. At all. There is still yet more to be fulfilled. Revelation hasn’t happened yet, for example.
All of the prophets prophesied something regarding Jesus. Yes, that includes Jonah for the 3 days and 3 nights scenario of Jesus’ death and resurrection.
Your belief system is weird.
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I was mutilated as a baby so I wouldn’t know the difference. Probably same as you, which would make you a liar. Only an adult circumcision could compare the difference. I think you’re a liar now, and disingenuous.
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A liar about what? Now you are falsely accusing me. What did I lie about? Bring it, dude!
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You were circumcised as a baby. You couldn’t possibly know the difference in sensitivity
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It’s called STUDY, not by personal experience. Ya, I read the articles in Penthouse as a teen. I didn’t just look at the pictures.
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You said it was incredible in the first person. You’re a liar
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I’m cut, dude. In order to get the OPPOSITE effect, PULL THE LOWER SKIN UP. Jeeeesh, man…use some common sense for once in your life, kid.
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You said sex wasn’t important —you must be impotent. Your backpedaling is pathetic. Liar liar.
The funny thing about this exchange—your religion has done nothing to make you any less an asshole. More proof it’s a crock of poo.
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I wasn’t a Christian back then, and I was a sailor…what do you expect? Get laid in every port, dude. Sex was everything back then. It was the ONLY thing! LOL.
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Reveling in the enormities of your youth, are we?
You still are not a Christian. I can tell by you apologetics. Keep going! You may even convince yourself.
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Oh…so you KNOW what a Christian is SUPPOSED to be, huh? That’s quite interesting. You should write a book and tell Christians what Christians are supposed to be. Sounds like you are the arrogant one. That’s like telling a doctor how to doctor.
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You let the doctors probe, not me.
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Both the bible and science agree that the UNIVERSE (science), or HEAVENS (as the bible states) is EXPANDING. Expanding. How does that happen? Now, I don’t know if there was a big bang. But this I know…the universe is expanding. What says your religion?
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It is expanding and it will also contract. More cycles. Next?
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Contract? No, it will scroll back to nothing one day. The bible states that.
Isaiah 34:4
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Revelation 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
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This is not how it will happen. They won’t be moved out of their place. They will cease to be any form of any thing
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And you know this because…….?????
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I’ve seen it in a vision.
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Tele-vision? Sci-Fi Channel?
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Besides, Romans 9 discusses what God did with the Pharoah, in order to tell a story about himself. In the afterlife, the Pharoah got mercy, all because God used him for earthly destruction, due to the Pharoah playing a role of Satan, where Moses played Jesus… the redeemer. That’s how to interpret things.
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Oh, on that same discussion about the Pharoah and Moses, Egypt is spiritually referred to as sin, that Jesus rescued us from. Satan doesn’t want us to leave sin. The wandering the desert for 40 years is struggling with God (Israel), the Jordan River is representing death, and ISRAEL represents HEAVEN, THE PROMISED LAND. That’s why Jews are important to the story of the land of Israel. But atheists don’t understand that, and refuse to. This ain’t about Palestinians.
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Oh, I forgot, Isaac, a reflection of God. Galatians 3:16.
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2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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I checked out you blog. You spend an awful lot of effort discounting Christianity and setting it right. I stand by my initial comments on grace.
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Define what you think is grace?
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Grace is salvation with no effort. Commanding to believe and be saved by grace is a contradiction.
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You are not commanded to believe at all. You are given a PROMISE of eternal life. It is up to YOU ALONE to believe or not believe. And, so far, you’ve proven that you don’t believe. So, since you don’t believe in eternal life, you won’t get eternal life. Free will means that you are not commanded to believe.
It’s no different than a bus schedule. I don’t have to believe in it. But if the bus arrives, based on the bus schedule, then I was wrong about not believing the bus schedule.
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Using belief as a carrot is a genius move, I must admit—the greatest religious koan ever produced. You get points for doing something you can’t help but do. Everyone has a belief, and that is the core of what’s wrong with the world.
Believing is now a virtue and the pinnacle of religious experience —but it has yet to achieve the promises results. Your belief means you are a temporary visitor here on planet earth, guilty by birth on sufferance. You have no merit of your own. You can be blamed or praised for what you do and you better choose the right belief or else!
Sorry mate, I don’t buy it when there are other ways of being that don’t deprecate the human being.
I don’t need to believe in eternal life—that is a gimme. Your promising something I already have—No gods needed.
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Hi Jim!
The extra energy needed to perform work is tiny: https://time.com/5400025/does-thinking-burn-calories/
Just curious. What drives you Jim in this fight against faith? Do you have an end goal? Are you driven by a goal to “wake” up those asleep in their faith thereby improving the world in some grand way? Or does your atheist “campaign” merely give you a sense of purpose on a smaller scale? Do you want to help and save those of faith from themselves, is that it? I present these questions to you because I think humans in general are stuck in their own ways. A desire to change has to come from within. Information, facts, logic rarely convince humans of anything or promote motives to change (according to research). The only thing one can really do is be the change one wishes to see in the world. Leading by example is key. Say, you state that believers are self-righteous the first thing to make sure of is to rid yourself of self-righteousness (as much as humanly possible). This would be vital as this clearly would be something you want to rid the world of. These standards we set for others must first be implemented in ourselves, all across the board.
The irony though is: That requires work.
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Of course it requires work to believe, and that is the point—then your salvation is earned by some additional effort (no matter how small) by mentally wrangling through the contradictions of the Christian religion. Your faith IS works!
If I had an agenda it would be to help the believer snap out of belief mode. Belief, no matter what kind whether political or religious is the engine that divides humanity and families. Not just religious beliefs—but belief as a general phenomenon. I say phenomenon because what is belief? Adherence to a set of ideas (thought convictions with no substance) that the ardent believer thinks is real, or imperative.
Point 2, just writing to present ideas that rarely penetrate the Christian bubble. There are other more productive and valid ways of being and living in the world.
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Jim,
Obviously, you have no clue as to what WORKS even is, regarding the bible.
The word “works” only pertains to the do’s and don’ts of the law of Moses. Period. Period. And Period.
You have re-defined it to suit your own logic.
Romans 2:4-8
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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I haven’t reworked the logic to suit my own purpose. Just pointing g out the ever growing list of Christian omissions is fully coming to any conclusions.
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Christian omissions? The word works that you use does not mean works that the Bible uses. Point blank. No omission there.
Besides, it takes more effort to pinch a loaf on the toilet than it does to believe in eternal life, thru Jesus.
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Well crapping is mostly involuntary. But it does take effort (as you are constantly proving, to adjust to a life of Christian contradiction. Why do you do it? Why do you insist on proselytizing if your efforts condemn you to works? Because you have no faith, that’s why.
The omission is the far out conclusions of the fallacy of your religion. Y’all stop at the conformative parts that keep you in bondage—by design.
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You sure put in a lot of effort to destroy effort. Effort is your enemy.
What are some famous sayings that involve the word effort?
You might like the following…but it takes effort to click the link:
https://kidadl.com/quotes/best-effort-quotes-that-arent-hard-work
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I’m not the one claiming salvation through grace. But what is offered in Christianity requires effort to sift through its fine print and contradictions.
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jim,
you had said:
” But what is offered in Christianity requires effort to sift through its fine print and contradictions. ”
My response:
No, it doesn’t.
Your lack of effort shows laziness. Your lack of effort is an excuse. I sure hope you never got married, because that takes effort, to sift through what men think are women contradictions.
Again, your use of the word of works is not the bible’s use of the word.
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Christianity is easy to believe as a child. Belief before intellect— the acquired intellect defends ends in the defense of belief, which belief would never have existed at all if full disclosure was offered.
Been happily married for years. It takes no effort at all. It is effort and expectations that spoil our differences. I have 5 happy grown children that are productive and happy. You’re very judge mental and closed to other possibilities—oh the arrogance of belief
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I’ll bet you were a hoot in high school. Probably never studied for exams, cuz it takes too much effort.
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I didn’t have to study for exams—in college either. High school was just an academic joke I played with. My premed A&P and cell bio was challenging.
Lazy is your inability to question the status quo. I did christianity that way too 50 years. But luckily I was able to graduate to a more sensible reality without the boogity man and his soldiers.
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Ahhh…you are of the “NO SWEAT” era…I get it. The Negative Perspiration clan! You probably skipped gym class! LOL.
Well, I don’t see Christianity the way that you do. And guess what? I have a mind of my own! I make my own decisions. And it certainly was not based on someone thinking that religion was a means to “control the masses”!
Besides, how is that “controlling the masses” going, anyway? It’s not working in the religious field at all. It’s definitely in the political arena now, however. I’ve been to Australia as part of the US Navy 3 times, and I never thought I’d see the day that their government officials would do serious beat downs on their own citizens over a flu…a man made flu at that!
It ain’t religion that is controlling the masses. It’s you godless liberals.
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I’m not a liberal. You are full of assumptions again and making an ass of yourself.
I’ve built 6 of my own homes and spent hundreds of days backpacking. Lived off the grid homesteading the Panama jungle and worked range cows for another 7. I know what it’s like to sweat, and to think for myself—you are not even a little bit aware of that process—quoting scripture and Jesus is not your beliefs, but borrowed from someone else’s. The fact is there are more legitimate ways of being that your religion offers.
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Well, it didn’t originate with me, but I do believe it, so yes, it is my belief. I made the decision to believe the belief.
Well, I’m certainly glad that you know how to sweat. But I still will not give up my faith just because of your insults.
Not gonna do it. Wouldn’t be prudent. Not at this juncture.
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Get back to me when you have an original thought. Thanks
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My declaration of my belief is indeed original thought. You atheists are interesting idiots!
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Your world is too small for a decent mind to whither. Enjoy that
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Who said you’ve got a decent mind? You? Self aggrandizing, huh?
Psalm 10:4
The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
Is that true, or false?
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Belief is the ultimate display of pride and arrogance. You’ve proven that here…again.
What is you definition of wicked, for your god is wicked and a genocidal ego trip. Sort of like his pretended followers
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Now you are just making sayings up out of thin air. That’s not intellectual.
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The impression somehow prevails that the true believer, particularly the religious individual, is a humble person. The truth is the surrendering and humbling of the self breed pride and arrogance. The true believer is apt to see himself as one of the chosen, the salt of the earth, the light of the world, a prince disguised in meekness, who is destined to inherit the earth and the kingdom of heaven too. He who is not of his faith is evil; he who will not listen will perish.
Eric Hoffer
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He says, “True believers are not intent on bolstering and advancing a cherished self, but are those craving to be rid of an unwanted self. They are followers, not because of a desire for self-advancement, but because it can satisfy their passion for self-renunciation!” Hoffer also says that true believers “are eternally incomplete and eternally insecure.”
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You had said:
“your god is wicked and a genocidal ego trip”
My response:
Atheists always say that, because their focus is only this life, not the next. Wicked is those who purposefully go against the laws of nature, and against God’s commands. Key word, purposefully.
Now, regarding “genocidal”, I’m assuming you are discussing the world flood of Noah’s day? If so, those people are in heaven, and the book of Peter indicates that. And so does this:
Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So, even tho they died in this life, they are fine. God “used” those people to tell a story of the future, therefore, there is no sin that could be imputed to those people. Romans 9 explains that as well.
But the wicked will not be given mercy at all.
Genesis 13:13
But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.
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Christians are fundamentally against the laws of nature and have no problem at all butchering the natural world and circumventing its beauty for profit. You are so disconnected from it you think it can be owned and used up for your will and pleasure. Weird
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Fundamentally…hmmmm…where have I heard that word before? LOL.
You sound like one of those environmental green freaks that can’t make up their mind to either be a tree hugger, or a plastic hater.
You might enjoy this of George Carlin:
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Your overuse of the word hatred is merely you projecting. I’m not involved in any news and haven’t for 16 years. I’m a part of no movements whatsoever. I just watch and it’s not hard to see your casual disdain for the natural world. More koolaid ,Ed?
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You have too much time on your hands which gives you plenty of time to hate others. You stew on it too much. You don’t have much of a sense of humor, that’s for sure.
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You’re an ass and that’s not really very funny.
You seem to be the one hating and name calling. Truly you have a dizzying intellect of a fundy no it all.
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Well, I’m not Eric Hoffer. As a matter of fact, I don’t really debate atheists, as you can tell by our conversation. I’m not a pro at it. I normally debate Christians. Yes, a Christian debating other Christians. Imagine that.
Most atheist arguments come from the hatred of Catholics…and I might say, probably justifiably so.
However, from the reformation, we have Luther, and Calvin, and a few splinters from even that. They all have Catholic baggage that they brought forth with them.
I detest Catholicism, I detest Calvinism even more. I disagree with a lot of what Luther had to say, as well.
Most of those sects believe in “Original Sin”, whereas, I don’t. And their whole doctrine is centered around “Original Sin”.
I don’t buy off on any of their “doctrines” at all.
I am what is knows as non-denominational. I do not adhere to anyone’s “We Believe” statements, because I certainly do not believe in all of their beliefs.
Take for example, Trinity…three people playing the role of one God. No, I don’t believe in Trinity. I do, however, believe that Jesus is God ALONE.
I do believe that The Father is God, that The Son is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. But I certainly do not believe in the Trinity. And I’m sure that makes no sense to you at all.
Like I said, I make my own decisions. I have a saying, that denominations search the commentaries daily to see if the bible is right. Me, I search the bible to see if the preacher is right.
Just because the preacher said it, doesn’t make it true.
I’m not Eric Hoffer. I’m Ed Chapman (Denny Crane!).
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You are actually the textbook believer Hoffer was referring to.
Arrogant and prideful.
You bring up hatred? I hate no one at all. You assume a lot in your angry rants. Very predictable. I Just state the obvious. If you believe the Bible you are god too, not just Jesus. That is plain according to scripture.
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No, I’m not. But, since Hoffer said it, you would accuse every Christian of it. I’m not arrogant. I’m not prideful. I’m sarcastic. Huge difference.
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No, you’re arrogant, unkind, and a bully. Your religion has done nothing to help you but has made it worse.
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You are falsely accusing. But you’d do that to any Christian.
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Over the years I’ve had a majority of good conversations with Christian’s. Only a few nutters have been as rude and condescending as you. Why don’t you take it up with your 5 followers and form another cult.
I’ve given you enough rope to hang yourself on my site. You’re just a plain old ass, in spite of your religion who are mostly decent folks. Bye.
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Ya, and it’s amazing that all those great conversations with all them Christians that you had didn’t change your mind at all. You still think they are idiots. The only one being condescending is you, pal.
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Duck off mate. By
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Right here, you contradicted yourself: “Your lack of effort shows laziness.”. If it doesn’t take effort, then there would be no “laziness.” 😎
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I didn’t contradict anything. He’s the one discussing effort, not me. And since he doesn’t like effort, that tells me he’s lazy…unrelated to anything religious.
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Thank you for your informative answer. Humans are filled with paradoxes and biases that they hold on to for comfort, mental stability and inner peace. This picking and choosing is not something exclusive for believers. All one can do is try to stay awake and self-reflect. As for faith, from my subjective perspective it is very rewarding work. I know that the creator is the truth, but I also accept that there are infinite things I do not know. That I am at peace with.
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Many share the accolades of their faith while simultaneously living in fear. Bunkers are filled with it, social media is exploited and then abandon over this fear by beliefs that someone may be watching. Real faith is total trust in letting go—the faith of an atheist. At least my atheism.
Beliefs are the dividing lines of nations and families. These convictions of thought and imagination has husbands and wives wringing over how the other thinks, which is silly really.
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I would argue that the nature of humans and our weaknesses are dividing families and the world. It sounds like you have found your preferred path. I do not fear being watched, I feel comfort in being looked after. The relationship with the creator is freedom to me. It was interesting to learn more about your perspectives.
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Faith is not blind disregard of evidence.
It’s putting your trust in something or someone that you know. Therefore, I have no effort in “working” to know God. He is an existential reality that “just is.”
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That works just fine until you start to mentally wrangle the contradictions. You would have to stretch it out pretty far to determine most people don’t put in a tremendous amount of effort to understand this. Unless you just blindly believe.
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Jim, it’s interesting you objectively claim contradictions from the Bible. Isn’t it true your Naturalist prophets believe in multiple worlds and infinite possibilities? Thus, couldn’t we have a hypothetical world where a triune God exists and a hypothetical world where a single celled amoeba arose via natural selection? I mean there is no objective reality, and how could you substantiate the claim that your mind is logical and mine isn’t? Especially considering your experience is limited and you haven’t exhausted all possible worlds in an infinite regress of events outside our known universe.
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Not really if you think about it beyond the accepted conclusions.
First of all, they don’t “believe” in multiple worlds but some of the equations look to that possibility.
Your hypothetical world with a triune god is somehow separate from the whole? If the Hebrew god exists nothing else exists but god. Unless you want to redefine the circumference of omnipotence.
Of course my experience is limited. I did however spend 50 years as a Christian and quite frankly god never showed himself to me nor did if fulfill any of its objectives. Always later. Later. Hang in there. It doesn’t ever prepare one to graduate but keeps one in perpetual suspension.
This is not the point though. Grace in ignorance is almost understandable. But Grace through works? Effort? Perusing WordPress to prove yourself is more of that same effort.
I just find it interesting that one cannot exist with the other. Like humility and pride. Humility leads to pride.
The Bible makes promises it cannot keep. You were promised tools to work with when you agreed to believe. “Greater signs than these follow them that believe”. So what are your signs, your promised tools? Nobody has anything in their kit. In anything but your own belief that would be intolerable.
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Jim, thanks for the conversation. You are a thinker and I appreciate your eagerness and passion to understand why we exist and what our purpose is in life, even if we disagree on some of the fundamentals.
I used to be a pastor then went to medical school and now in real estate. Guess who checked on me after I left the church? My atheist friends and not any of the Christians. Did that negatively affect my relationship with God? Yes, but I didn’t allow experience to jeopardize what I knew was true about Scripture.
I heard an agnostic once claim that if the stars all aligned momentarily to state “Yahweh” then he would believe in the existence of God. However, Scripture tells us from the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man that even if someone rises from the dead they won’t believe since they didn’t trust Moses and the prophets. I think this is still true today.
No miracle will convince an individual that God exists. They may think they were dreaming, it was coincidental, or come up with a hypothetical alternative to deny the plausibility of deity interference.
Believe me, I have my doubts about God. The world of suffering, natural disasters, and this dystopian society makes me think maybe there really is no god. But then I think of Plato and the forms that since the world is skewed, maybe there is an ideal universe that does indeed exist.
Nevertheless, my whole argument beforehand about the possible worlds is not because I believe them to be true, but that there is an evolutionary argument against naturalism.
Alvin Plantinga has written on this subject. He says: “Combining naturalism and evolution is self-defeating, because, under these assumptions, the probability that humans have reliable cognitive faculties is low or inscrutable.” His reason for that is because evolution is not mainly concerned about “truth” but more concerned about “survival.” For instance, if falsehood could allow the species to survive, then our brain has adapted in such a way to survive. Therefore, our cognitive faculties can’t be trusted.”
It’s really a fascinating argument and has been accepted into epistemology philosophy as a legitimate argument against naturalism. Maybe explore that subject and see if it changes your mind. Have a great day!
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Thank you. So you seem pretty well versed in some areas, so maybe you could answer this; If god created the world out of nothing, why is there still nothing? Or as Erwin Schrödinger put it—“Why does it appear (according to our best science) that we live in a purely physical world devoid of qualities? The entire setup is an illusion (not what it seems) and nothing is made of anything—only forms. Particles which are defined as “excitations of a field”. If the abrahamic god did this, he used deception to animate his sims. Even your own separate identity is presumptuous at best and has no evidence to support it.
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Before entering a new topic, what are your thoughts on the evolutionary argument against naturalism?
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I have no problem with that but I have a different viewpoint than either or. I understand evolution took every shortcut to reproduction and reality would have been a distraction, far to complicated to be useful. The funny thing is, according to hundreds of thousands of game simulations (evolutionary game theory) and the mathematically sound elements of evolution, those that perceive reality as it is, go extinct—every time. The probability you see reality as it is is zero.
It sounds counter intuitive but it is true. Fitness beats truth every time. Which leads us to the population boom and stability of human organisms under the judeo-christian thought that dominates most of the world. We’re so far off reality that we’ll likely multiply into starvation.
But if you can’t trust yourself, it is highly unlikely you could trust the perceptions of another, which is what Christianity does.
One thing that does trump fitness is logic. To abandon your moral autonomy is simply lazy.
“To evaluate whether a being is good requires moral judgment, which requires moral autonomy. Therefore it is not possible to continuously evaluate if a being is good while also worshipping it (or submitting to it) Therefore, worshipping necessarily requires abandoning one’s moral responsibility, which is immoral”—James Rachel
Think of the world as an interface. Interfaces simplify what is going on in order to allow you to act efficiently. Good interfaces hide complexity. They do not let you see reality as it is but only as it is useful to you. What you call the “physical world” is merely a highly-simplified representation of non-dual consciousness.
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I think, therefore I am. My mind exists and I know it, whether it’s logical or not is a different question. However, to think that our understanding of reality is zero and that this will cause human extinction is quite far fetched in my opinion.
Natural selection is amoral. It’s chief end is survival. There is no reason we should attribute any kind of “purpose” to it since naturalism doesn’t have “being” or “intentionality.” These are attributes only conscious beings have.
With a theistic worldview, you could argue creation does have a purpose and it’s orchestrated from a grand designer. He has inputed intelligence and “code” into the system to create a desired output.
Only God or some supernatural being makes sense that logic exists in our minds. Otherwise, you would have to get to the position you are at now, that all of our thoughts are amoral, meaningless, and illogical. You might come to this conclusion based on your decision to deny God’s existence, but I doubt that is how you really function in the world.
I am sure you really do believe that these letters I am stringing together are not random, but have a meaning, whether you reject these ideas is a different question altogether. I am sure when you wake up, you truly believe there is a sun out there, the rain is really falling from the sky, and you can taste actual coffee or tea when you sit at the table reading this Christians viewpoint.
Listen, I wish you the best. I hope you continue researching and exploring this amazing world. And most importantly, you have a God who cares for you. Blessings!
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Our intuition that we see reality as it is incorrect. Our brains are not comprehending more than a sliver of useful perceptions. You think, therefore you am, begs the question. What makes you, you, and not somebody else? The notion that you are an isolated, single soul does t pass the logic test and after scrutiny doesn’t pass any test—except belief intuition which is completely unreliable, and based on tradition. This misdirection does help keep the game in play, though. We will never discover the source of consciousness outside ourselves. Why do you suppose that is?
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